Advantage/disadvantage and stopping the clock

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jay R

M&M,

I guess my philosophy is based on the discussions I've had with the veteran officials in my area and my mentor. These are college officials who I respect very much. They feel that you have to come in and fit in with the way the game is called at certain level. And where I officiate, it's the norm to call the foul when the defense is trying to foul and they make contact.

Some have said that this is inconsistent. i don't feel it's inconsistent because the situation is not the same. In the first half, when a player makes contact with the dribbler and I feel there is no adv/disadv. I don't blow the whistle. In that situation, the player is not trying to foul on purpose. Late in the game, as long as I feel that he is making some attempt to go for the ball (which is subjective), I'll give him the foul right away.

A partner of mine once decided to not call a foul in a similar late game situation. Two seconds later there is a turnover which leads to a basket. In the discussion after the game, he said he thought he was doing the offensive team a favour by ignoring the contact. I'd rather just call the foul.

I don't understand why we're changing the way we call it just because the defense is purposefully trying to break the rules. Why does the defense get what they want when the offense doesn't?

You still haven't answered this question: Why are you willing to give the bend the rules in favor of the defense here, when the offense has the rules on their side? Are you going to take away the layup in the OP just because the defense wants you to?

For the record, your partner was right to ignore the incidental contact; and he wasn't doing anyone a favor. He was following the rule.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't understand why we're changing the way we call it just because the defense is purposefully trying to break the rules. Why does the defense get what they want when the offense doesn't?

You still haven't answered this question: Why are you willing to give the bend the rules in favor of the defense here, when the offense has the rules on their side? Are you going to take away the layup in the OP just because the defense wants you to?

For the record, your partner was right to ignore the incidental contact; and he wasn't doing anyone a favor. He was following the rule.

We aren't changing the rules we're calling them in the context of a situation. In this situation we know not calling the first touch or reach is going to lead to more reaches and touches. This isn't the middle of the game where if there is a slap that is not directly effecting the play it won't happen, if we don't call that slap there is another one coming harder and faster almost immediately.

I agree if it was a foul early, its a foul now. It was unpsportsmanlike before it was an unsportsmanlike now. But there is also a provision in the rules for calling fouls on plays that are not in themselves illegal but promote rough play. If I can see that is where the play is going by letting reaches and grabs go when the other team is trying to foul then I'm calling the foul that stops the escalation rather then risking something worse.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

We aren't changing the rules we're calling them in the context of a situation. In this situation we know not calling the first touch or reach is going to lead to more reaches and touches. This isn't the middle of the game where if there is a slap that is not directly effecting the play it won't happen, if we don't call that slap there is another one coming harder and faster almost immediately.

in other words, you're calling the play the way that you think it should be called. To hell with consistent play-calling. To hell with the direction that the rules maakers gave us. Yup, you know better than all that.

Absolutely terrible advice imo. You can't officiate a game with fear.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

We aren't changing the rules we're calling them in the context of a situation. In this situation we know not calling the first touch or reach is going to lead to more reaches and touches. This isn't the middle of the game where if there is a slap that is not directly effecting the play it won't happen, if we don't call that slap there is another one coming harder and faster almost immediately.

I agree if it was a foul early, its a foul now. It was unpsportsmanlike before it was an unsportsmanlike now. But there is also a provision in the rules for calling fouls on plays that are not in themselves illegal but promote rough play. If I can see that is where the play is going by letting reaches and grabs go when the other team is trying to foul then I'm calling the foul that stops the escalation rather then risking something worse.

If the defense doesn't know how to foul, I'm not bailing them out. It seems you (and others here) are willing to do that.

You absolutely are bending the rules in favor of one team for fear of that team getting out of hand. I would prefer to actually officiate the game, and if they get out of hand, it's on them.

And I don't have to go to my assigner later and say, "Well, I was afraid if I didn't call the first contact, they might get rough."

I'll say this, if it's the custom in your area, so be it; just so the offenses all know they're going to get screwed and may as well just fold up and wait for the foul.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You absolutely are bending the rules in favor of one team for fear of that team getting out of hand. I would prefer to actually officiate the game, and if they get out of hand, it's on them.

+1

More so, you should never try to help the team that's breaking the rules.