Let The Fun Begin..
 

AAU modified NFHS rules. I am not sure we handled this correctly, but we apparently did a good enough job explaining what we were doing and why that neither the State Police or National Guard had to be called. Which when dealing with some AAU tournaments is a HUGE accomplishment.
Here is the play. (and I thought this only happened in the movies!)
Visitors score with 2 seconds left. V presses while H1 is taking the ball out of bounds. H2 receives the pass from H1 as H2 is breaking hard to the ball. H2 then proceeds to shoot a lay up.....at V basket.....H2 makes the basket while V2 attempts to block the shot and fouls the player hard. (Not intentional or flagrant) 1 second left on the clock....
I know what we did and I'll save that fun for later. What would YOU do?

If the basket was already successful, I have nothing. You said it was not intentional or flagrant. If the basket was not yet successful, call the foul and shoot bonus free throws (if applicable) or it's H's ball the spot nearest the foul.

-Josh

It all depends...
Was the foul before the "shot" entered the basket? If so, no score, can't score with a dead ball and continuous motion does not apply, this is by definition NOT a shot attempt.
Was H team in bonus? If so, shoot FT(s) at other end.

What is so difficult about this play?

I told you this was fun. It was a dunk (not the afore mentioned lay up) both teams in double bonus.

Was the dunk through the hoop before the foul?

-Josh

Without the aide of slow mo replay, I couldn't say. Maybe I need to get better at judging that but usually when a player goes up for a dunk and gets fouled while dunking I don't judge when it went through the net. Would have been helpful on this play.
If it had been a lay up or short jumper it would be easier to administer. I am sure we kicked it but we live and learn. The first option was calling the play dead no points for V and H shoots the double bonus. However, we didn't think we could disallow the basket b/c none of us could say for sure that the foul occured prior to the basket. We couldn't ignore the foul, because it was a hard play and a hard foul (and a hard dunk) The shooter had not returned to the floor but there was no airborn shooter in play b/c the foul made the play dead. So we counted the bucket, called the foul after the basket and went down the court to shoot the double bonus. Both coaches were rather exercised during this discussion, but before we proceeded we called them together, explained our reasoning and they were both ok with it. (Although the V coach wanted their player shooting the "and 1" but he was joking!) H missed the second bonus shot and the game went in the books.
So despite whether we kicked the rule or not, the story had a happy ending for everyone except the player who dunked the ball at his own basket, then missed a free throw!!

I would have disallowed the basket, and shot the free-throws due to the foul on the other end.

Question. If you counted the basket, couldn't you have ruled an inadvertent whistle? The only way I see a foul being called and counting the basket is if the foul was ruled an intentional or flagrant technical foul. We don't have an airborne shooter here because the dunk wasn't a try as it was at the wrong basket, so we can't use that exception.

The only way I see this could be ruled is count the basket, rule the whistle inadvertent and play on. Or wave off the basket, and shoot the bonus free throws at the other end of the court.

1) Would have been helpful? It's impossible to make the RIGHT call on this play without that knowledge. And you don't need slo-mo to make that decision either. Any half-way competent official automatically looks to see the status of the ball when he calls any foul. All you were doing was guessing...and you're still guessing.

2) Unfortunately, the rules won't allow you to make that call. If the ball was dead(which it is after a basket), any contact that ISN'T intentional or flagrant has to be ignored, by rule.

You can't make the right call if you don't know the rules...or have a clue as to what's going on.

If there were any doubt, I would have counted the basket and ignored the contact. Why reward stupidity?

Best of all, however, is to have no doubt and get it right.

I've officiated with a guy over the years who says his "referee motto" is "Occasionally wrong but never indecisive".

I told him mine was "Always right and always decisive". ;)

It's Not What You Said, It's How You Said It ...
 

Similar to what our, now retired, local interpreter used to say:

"The best wrong call is a strong wrong call."

BILLY that is a great motto! I think it fits this situation.
Yeah, we kicked it but we did it strongly!!;) Talked to the guys today about it and we had a good laugh about writing our own rule! We still couldn't decide if the dunk or foul happened first, it was really bang-bang. But upon further review, we probably should have gone with the contact, disallowed the basket and shoot the double bonus at the other end. We all had plays similar to this but they all had involved lay ups or jump shots. Goes to show working several games in a row can skew your reasoning!! Live and learn and get it right the next time!
JR glad to see you continue to be in tune with my sense of irony!

Methinks you're confusing your sense of irony with your lack of rules knowledge. I'm in tune with that.:)

The irony was saying it would have been helpful knowing what occured first. But since we were all caught flat footed on that one and didn't know what happened first we made it up as we went along. We got it wrong, but we did it in such a SPECTACULAR manner, we got away with it!!!!;)

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you have any friends in real life.

And if you knew the rules, you wouldn't have had to make anything up. You could have simply followed them.

You had two correct choices you could have made:
1) If you decide that the foul occurred before the ball was through the basket, by rule you cancel the basket and administer the common foul. Case book play 4.41.2.
2) If you decide the contact occurred after the ball was through the basket, and the contact was neither intentional or flagrant(as you posted), by rule you count the basket and ignore the contact as being "incidental". Rule 4-19-1NOTE,

Soooooo, even if you had to guess whether the contact was before or after the basket, you could still have made a correct call after that by rule if you followed #1 or #2 above. Instead, you ended up making a call that had absolutely no basis at all under the rules. What the rules won't allow you to do is count the basket and administer a common foul. That is kinda "ironic", I guess.

You can only get so far conning people when you're officiating, even if you're "spectacular" in doing so. I wouldn't break an arm patting yourself on the back just because some rec league coach had the same rules knowledge as you. You can get away with making up calls in rec leagues but there's some pretty knowledgable coachs around at the higher levels. And if that call went against them, even if they don't know the rule they'll sureasheck check it out.

Hopefully it's a learning experience.

I can pretty much guarantee that I don't have any like you. Nor will I ever.

And that's the last time I'll respond to you. You just went on the "ignore" list with a few select others. That should make for a better relationship between us.:)

What if, on this play, one official signaled a block and the other signaled a charge, and then they realized that the contact came after the ball went through the basket? Would they still have to report the double foul?

I'll take a stab at the play. Since the ball is dead, there is no call to be made. We can't use the airborne shooter exception because this is not a try. If, for some reason, this play happened in a game I was working, I'd get together with my co-official(s) and convince him that we have an inadvertent whistle.

You're certainly not the only one.

I was just wondering, since no one has yet asked, what was the score when this action took place?
Was the home team significantly ahead, such that this player was just screwing around and showing off by dunking at the wrong end or was he legitimately confused?
If the former, I think that it is time to end the game.
Also, if the score is close enough such that the home team is attempting to gain an advantage by scoring two-points against itself (perhaps instead of risking a turnover or missed FTs at the other end and then surrendering a game-tying three-pointer), I would consider an unsporting technical foul.

I think I speak for us all when I say:

:rolleyes:

All big plays in the movies happen in slow motion.

I'll wait to see the responses of others.
I believe that more people than you think support the concept of Fair Play, especially at the HS level.

Note: Even the NBE has a rule against attempting to score at the wrong basket. It's counter to the basic intent of the game.

In the first place, to say that to score for the other team is an advantage is, at best, a stretch of the imagination. In the second place, "counter to the basic intent of the game" would mean uh.......? Let's see, like for example, intentionally missing a free throw in certain situations. You gonna T 'em for that?

But NFHS doesn't.

I'm not arguing that it is a violation in NFHS play such as it is at the NBA level. I'm well-aware that the NFHS does not have a rule specifically against this.

I'm stating that it is against the concept of fair play and therefore, depending upon the circumstances, may fall within the purview of the rule addressing unsporting fouls.

You seem to lack some creative thinking ability.
Coaches are not stupid although they often act in that manner. They will find ways to abuse the rules to gain an unintended advantage. (Recall the NCAA football coaches only a couple of seasons ago who quickly figured out that they could purposely be offside on a kick-off in order to burn a few more seconds near the end of a game after scoring due to the new timing rules? The NCAA even came out and stated that this should be penalized with an unsporting flag, and then fixed the loophole by instructing the officials to reset the clock.)
Given that the game clock does NOT stop at the HS level following a made goal in the final minute of play as it does in NCAA games, it can easily be understood that scoring for the opposing team could be quite advantageous under the right circumstances. Specifically, doing so with a three or four point lead, under five seconds remaining in the game, and the opponent not having any time-outs would place the opposing team in a far worse situation than simply inbounding the ball and playing the game in a normal manner. The reason is that instead of the opponent being able to commit a common foul, they must now commit either an intentional personal or a technical foul in order to stop the clock, if the team not credited with the score simply has all of its players stand OOB behind the end line and not inbound the ball.
You really don't see that as putting the team in a more advantageous situation than they previously were? :confused:

Apples to Oranges. Missing a FT or any other shot on purpose while possibly conferring a strategic advantage does not place the ball in a status such that the opponent cannot get it, thus gaining an advantage wholly outside of the scope of play. You cannot fail to acknowledge that a made goal produces the effect of unequivocally awarding possession of the ball to the non-scoring team WITH THE CLOCK RUNNING at the HS level.
The opponent is severely penalized for interfering with that awarded throw-in. There is even an NFHS play ruling making it a technical foul to delay the game with under five seconds remaining in a throw-in situation for the opponent. Why do you think that the NFHS committee made that ruling? Hmmmm.... coaches trying to take advantage of the rules in an unsporting manner!

You can't by rule. You have to first "instruct"(i.e. warn) the player/team not to do that again. You can only forfeit if a player/team repeatedly committed acts which you considered as making a travesty of the game. You knew that.

And it upsets the gamblers and bookies.

Nevada - Score was tied prior to the dunk
Amused - Good point. It also gets played over and over again in slow motion. Just like Jimmy Chitwoods shot in Hoosiers, Roy Hobbs homer in The Natural and I am sure there were one or two in the Gabe Kaplan classic Fast Break!
JR - I'm sure you were not intimating that I base my career (officiating at least) on conning people.
And for the record:
I thoroughly stretch before I pat my own back. As we get older it is more and more important that we stretch before any strenuous activity
The coaches were very knowledgeable about the game. They were very helpful with pointing out 3 second calls, over the back and reach fouls. They were particularly helpful in pointing out to us that every drive to the basket should be an "and 1". Swell guys really.

I knew what you meant. If there are less than 5 seconds left and the team trailing does not foul immediately on the throw-in, if not before, then I just can't believe my team wouldn't have just as good a chance in trying to evade that defense for the remaining few seconds than to give my opponents two points.

You make valid points, but write a letter to the committee, don't try to legislate this on the court.

Nope, I sureasheck wasn't. It should be a learning experience for anybody, as it is any time that you run into one of these oddball plays....or any play that you're not quite certain about. My comments were made for a broader audience.

Jmo but a good option is to always have a rule/case book in your bag and get right into it post-game when everything is still fresh to confirm whether you aced or kicked the call. Doing it with your partners is a bonus for them also.

I like where Nevada is going with this... it is true that there could be more than meets the eye. However, if we take the play at face value, this is an indefensible improper application of a rule. Be thankful this happened in a summer game... ha, ha, enjoy it, AND BE GLAD IT HAPPENED IN A SUMMER GAME.

What seems to be absent in the entire thread is nobody mentioning what the definition of a "try" is. If you know the definition, then you know you can't have a shooting foul from an attempt on the wrong basket.

Really? Post #3 for starters.
Post #2 even operates under that assumption, even though it's not mentioned specifically.