Utah/Denver Shot Clock Violation
 

Did anyone see (or have access to the video) the shot clock violation in the Utah/Denver game at the end of the 2nd qtr? The only part I really saw was the shot and miss by Chris Anderson where (in order):
1) the ball left his hands on the shot attempt
2) the shot clock expired
3) .5 seconds later the game clock expires
4) the ball misses the ring

The officials kept the players on the court and put .5 seconds on the clock. I'm assuming that 24.5 was on the game clock when Denver's possession started. However, based on the order above...in NCAA, time would not be added and the quarter would over correct? Does anyone know the NBA rule regarding this?

Well I don't know why that would be the order in college but in the pros, if there are more than 24 left then the shot clock will run and if a team does not make an attempt or the ball does not contact the rim then we Must put the remaining time up. Seems like a no brainer to me???

What do u mean with this college rule? If both clocks expire before the ball contacts the rim and it ends up not contacting the rim u can still allow the game clock to expire and end the half/game?

I believe under NCAA rules, the half would have expired.

And here is a casebook play similar to the player that happened in the Utah vs. Denver game last night.

156. Player A1 scores a field goal with :31.0 remaining on the game clock in the first period. Following this, Player B2 attempts a field goal with one second remaining on the 24-second clock, which does not touch the basket ring. Player A1 secures possession of the ball and immediately calls timeout with: 05.0 on the game clock. What is the procedure regarding the amount of time remaining?
Officials shall direct the clock operator to reset the game clock to read :07.0. When the 24-second clock shows “0” and the field goal attempt fails to touch the basket ring, a 24-second violation has occurred.
RULE 7 - SECTION II - c (2)

157. Team B scores a successful field goal with :27.0 remaining in the fourth period and still trails, 121-120. Team A advances the ball into the frontcourt and with :04.0 on the game clock, Player A1 throws the ball towards the ceiling. Before the ball returns to the floor, both the 24-second clock and the game clock reads zero. What is the ruling?
Officials shall direct the official timer to reset the game clock to :03.0.
RULE 7 - SECTION II - c (2)

NCAA Ruling is different
 

Here is the Case Play for the NCAA (different from the NBA)

A.R. 33. There are 37 seconds (men) or 32 seconds (women) on the
game clock and 35 seconds (men) or 30 seconds (women) on
the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for
a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn
sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials
call a shot-clock violation. At the same time as the official’s
whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the period has
ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game
clock?
RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the
shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized
by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation
stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by
the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule
2-10.14). The period ended with the violation. However, in games
with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and an official courtside
television monitor, when in the judgment of the official time has
elapsed from when he or she signaled for the clock to be stopped to
when the game clock stopped, the monitor may be used to determine
the correct time to be put back on the game clock. In games without
an official courtside television monitor, the official is required to have
definite information relative to the time involved to correct the time
elapsed.
(Rule 2-13.2.c.3, 4-62, 2-10.14, 2-11.9, 5-10.1.c, 5-10.2.a, and
6-5.1.d)

The NBA rule is stupid. So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?

The NBA is not recognizing the fact that the ball is still live after the clocks expire.

The two rules are different. In the NBA the remaining time when the shot clock horn sounds is restored and the ball awarded to the opposing team. At the NCAA level the violation does not occur until it is clear that the ball has missed the ring and the time stops when one of the officials recognizes the violation by sounding the whistle. The time at that point is what the opposing team would get.

Why am I not surprised that btaylor doesn't know the NCAA rule? :(

Here's the NBE rule:

"If, in the opinion of the head official, the opposing team has a shooter who is considered a league superstar, the clock will be reset to whatever time the officials feel the superstar would need to get off a shot and thrill the fans. The actual time left on the clock must be at least doubled. If the game is nationally televised, the time left must be tripled. If the opposing team is in last place in their division, is the visiting team, is from a small market - and the game is not televised, the officials are to leave the court immediately and ignore the clocks."

What exactly is your point? He was answering regarding a situation involving pro rules. You don't like the guy, we get it already!

I am not gonna go into what is stupid and what isn't. I would just like to ask a question:

if a team obtains a rebound at 40 seconds and the defensive team is down 1, and the defensive team opts to play defense, thinking they will have some time to get the ball back, you are telling me that the offensive player can throw a ball towards the rafters sooooo high that it takes all 5 of those remaining seconds and there is no way you can put time back on the clock??????

Like I said, not getting into stupid or not but which ruleset protects the game more and allows less circumvention of those rules?

A Team in the pro game is only allotted 24 seconds to get off a shot and if they do not do that legally then they have exhausted their 24 and are not allowed to take up any more of that time, by whatever means they try to employ whether its throwing the ball to the ceiling or anything else that they may try to take more time off the clock.

Was it a try?


I just don't see how the clock is supposed to have stopped (or be reset to a point) before a violation occurs.

The violation occurs when 24 seconds have elapsed.

Like btaylor said, this rewards the defense (and is a theme I think when comparing NBA to NCAA rules -- the most glaring example is the backcourt count being reset on a timeout for NCAA but not in NBA).

What about my question about a made basket in such situations?

" So, in the NBA, if I release a 40 ft jumpshot with 1.0 on the game clock and .5 on the shot clock and the ball passes through the hoop after both clocks expire are you going to put 0.5 back on the clock after the made basket? Same concept, right?"

It is not unlike a FT lane violation. It is delayed pending the result of the try. The violation essentially occurs when the clock hits zero but is ignored if the ball subsquently hits the rim or goes in.

Think of it like this...the team has 24 seconds to release a legitamate try...and a legitmate try is defined by hitting the rim or going in. At the point of release, you can't always tell if it will at least hit the rim or not...so you must wait. But the violation, if there was one, already occured at the time of the buzzer.

I don't think either version is really all that much better than the other, just different.

I think Camron covered this in his post pretty much but since you are asking me....:

Plain and simple the team legally attempted a shot in your scenario, meaning the ball either contacted the rim or went in.

By the sounds of the college rule. If a player is just dribbling the clock out and there was supposed to be a 1 second differential and the officials don't hit their whistle or "recognize" it I guess I should say, and the game clocks runs to zeros then the game would be over????

To me and the background with which I've been taught, this doesn't make sense to me to allow a team more than their allotted time in a possession.

Is it possible that the NCAA uses this rule so that officials don't have to worry about knowing the time of possessions and also so they don't have to worry about resetting the clock to its appropriate time? It just makes it easier on the refs? I mean this in hopes of getting an honest answer, as I am not trying to be condescending as it sounds...

My point is that the guy is irresponsible. As long as he continues to accept NCAA assignments despite not knowing the rules at that level and not attempting to learn them, he makes the rest of us look bad.

Of course, he thinks that he is doing a wonderful job.

To this day I have never made a college game look bad or made my partners look bad. U have no idea what I make a game "look" like. You have never seen me referee!

Who is "us"? cause if you are talking about refs as a whole, I'm pretty sure I fit the mold and the makeup of a referee. I believe I have and show respect for all of "us" who wear the uniform.

Are you on some kind of a high horse???? you make it sound like you are so all high and mighty. Where do you get off?

I mean please do tell, if you are a big time DI referee I will apologize right now and go back in my hole. As you notice I don't engage myself in college questions on this forum sooo much. I just get on here and try and learn the rule from discussions. As you can tell, this was related to pro rules so I answered and was, in fact, unaware of the rule for college. Even if I had read the rule for college, I still wouldn't have believed that I couldn't reset the clock cause the word "recognizing" means that I recognize that there is a 2 second(or whatever) differential and that the 35 seconds has expired.

I have not engaged anyone in a long time who has attempted to berate me on this forum, but for you to say I make officials everywhere look bad, that is pure defamation and disrespectful. I would never say anything to anyone like that unless I had actually watched them work and then I would let them know in private.

I take your accusation very seriously. I do this for a living and up to this point in my life, which has not been a long one, it has been my life's work. I respect the people who do it... at all levels and I respect the game and have the utmost love for it. There is not a day that goes by that I wouldn't love to talk basketball and you have virtually just spit at my feet and disrespected me and the job we all love and enjoy to do sooo much.

Since you admittedly don't know the NCAA rules, you likely have and just aren't aware of it.

Not if you don't bother to study the rules ahead of time and take the court unprepared to correctly handle situations that may arise.

Exactly my point. You don't even know the basics of an NCAA shot clock violation, yet you work these games and think that you are doing a good job. Every time that you incorrectly reset the clock because you somehow got the notion that you can, you screw one of the teams and embarrass every conscientious person who dons the stripes. Simply put, you need to learn the rules, and furthermore you need to learn the importance of actually applying them in a contest. That's what a real referee does.
PS Your convoluted definition of "recognizing" is utterly laughable. You are dead wrong on this point.

I haven't written anything that is untrue. By your own admission, in this specific case and several other in the past, you don't know certain rules and are at a loss as to how to handle some basic situations in an NCAA game.
You are the one who is being disrespectful. Each time that you take the court at this level without proper preparation you are disrespecting the two teams, their coaches, their supporters, your partners, and the avocation of officiating. You are saying that they aren't important enough for you to bother to get it right for them. All of their practice time and hours of video study are belittled by your lack of preparation.
What makes you think that it is okay for you to behave in this manner? Hopefully, this is a sin of youth which you will outgrow.

If you actually do take officiating seriously, then you sure don't show it. You need to change your ways and put in the required study time to be able to properly perform you duties. You can't always count on someone else who does possess the proper knowledge to be there and to handle these things for you. When you take that step I'll stop chastising you.

It is not about recognizing it....they must, if there is any doubt, wait to see if it hits the rim or not. And once it misses the rim, the subsequent whistle stops the game clock...no backing up.

It is about when the violation is defined to have occurred.

In the NBA, the violation is effectively defined to have occured when the horn sounds if an airborne try doesn't subsequently hit the rim....and the clock is brought back to the point of the violation.

In the NCAA, the violation is defined to occur the when the ball misses the rim....not when the horn sounds....and the clock remains.

The question that you need to ask is what are they supposed to do within that alloted time? And what constitutes the "time"?

In the NCAA, the team has 35 seconds to release a try that ultimately hits the rim.

In the NBA, the team has 24 seconds to hit the rim.

Neither is more sensible than the other, just different.

You could ask the same question about why the throwin count stops on the release versus when the backcourt count stops on a pass to the frontcourt.

Most shot clock periods start while the game clock is running. It isn't really that easy to "know" the precise difference between the two without looking at the video or watching the clock when the shot clock buzzer sounds when we're talking about making adjustments that could be as precise as a few tenths of a second.

NBA has had video a bit longer than NCAA. In fact, I'd bet that of ALL the NCAA schools, courtside video is more uncommon than common.

Well explained, Camron.
This entire thread demonstrates btaylor's complete ignorance of how the NCAA shot clock is to be administered. Frankly, I'm shocked that he has reached that level with such poor knowledge of a basic aspect of the game.

Fixed it for ya. :D

How do you know he's not doing a wonderful job? Apparently, he's doing pretty d*mn well. But you personally attacking someone is utterly ridiculous, that's not what we do in this profession. If you think every person who works NCAA basketball is a rule book guru you've got another thing coming. There is consistent misapplications of rules every night by the "big dogs." I've worked with NCAA Tournament officials and saved our butts because I knew something about the rules they didn't. BT answered a question regarding pro rules correctly then asked for clarification on the NCAA rules, sounds to me like he's doing what it takes to improve his rules knowlegde.

BT is not the one who makes officials look bad, guys like you are because of your superiority or perhaps inferiority complexes. I've never had a problem with anyone on this board, but I think your personal attacks are unfounded and do not represent what we as officials stand for.

Just my 2 cents, don't bother replying because I won't go any deeper on this topic...I've spoken my mind.

If a player launches the ball towards the rafters you could easily deem it not to be a shot attempt and kill the play with your whistle as soon as the shot clock expires.

What are you going to do if it goes in?

It usually isn't to difficult to get the game clock when a team first gains control. I work hard to check the game clock right when they gain team control (or when the ball is touched during a throw-in) in order to have a number in my head that I can use to fix the shot clock if it is accidentally reset when it shouldn't have been.

Or in this case lets say that I checked and the game clock was at 40.5 when they gained possession then I know that I can put 5.5 on the game clock if the team still has control when the shot clock expires and the game clock shows anything but 5.5. You could also go to play-by-play for information if for some reason you didn't get the game clock time at initial possession.

You could also check to see if someone at the table could write down the game clock (when you are under 2 minutes) every time the shot clock is set or reset. This way you have information that you could use as a backup to your memory :)

(Noting that we're talking about a difference of fractions of a second when the end of the game is near and the shot clock expires just before the game clock does expire or nearly expires.)

You're still left with your judgement of control vs. the shot-clock operator. The two of you could be off just a little...especially on a turnover or rebound. I'd say that if you're within a second or less at the end, the clock is probably not incorrect....just a difference in judgement. I'd only make a change if is obvious that they didn't operate it correctly.

Also consider that the shot clock operator only has to push a buton when they want to reset the clock upon seeing a team gain control (ignoring the the throwin case since it is the easy case). You, on the other hand, have to see at two events, the team gaining possession and the game clock. Your synchronization of the two events is likely to have more inaccuracy than the shot clock operator.

CLH,
I did NOT attack btaylor personally. I strongly criticized his lack of rules knowledge and his taking the court unprepared. I stated that doing so makes the officials who do put in the study time and strive so hard to administer the game properly "look bad." In other words I criticized his ACTION (or his lack of action). I said nothing about him personally.
YOU are the one who resorted to a petty personal attack. YOU are the one who started babbling about superiority and inferiority complexes.
I totally disagree with the sentiments you have expressed in this thread. I am well within my rights to tell btaylor that he needs to work far harder on his off court rules preparation. I'm sure that he can handle that criticism. Hopefully, he will become a better official for it too.

Yes, you did.

Enough.

Ben, I watched an NBA Dev game the other night on TV. Did you pay those announcers to say your name?:) It seemed that you were mentioned a few times. Good job.

Here's a question for you. I can see the logic in the NBA rule about putting back time after 24 second violation, however are you going to that every time. Are you going to add one second on the clock in the 1st quarter of the game? Or is this just used late in games where timing issues become more important?

Thanks for the compliment Jay R. Yeah when you've been in the league 3 years like I have and work a lot more games then say a 1st year, the announcers see you more and they also make a conscious effort to know your name. They are homers for the most part but also for the most part they are professionals.

To answer your question, yes we readjust the clock one second if it is obvious and to use an example of what I do: If I saw the possession begin right at 2:58 then I consider it 2:57, bc I don't know how much time was left on that 2:58 so 2:57 is close and gives the shot clock operator a little lag time. So if we have a shot clock violation and the clock reads 2:32, then I know they were off by at least 1 second and put it back up. In our game it isnt a big deal either, bc before the game at the 10 min mark before every game we go over to the table to make sure the clock operator is able to put up tenths of seconds and fix the clock with ease, so when we do hold up the game for it then it takes 2 seconds instead of like 2 min. like in some small college games I've worked where it takes the clock operator forever. Also, some scorers tables are so good that the play-by-play people work in tandem with the clock operator so if they know they ran 1 second over the time, they put the time back up without ever stopping the game. Some are just that good.

Maccabi Tel Aviv Coach Gershon told me :p

I think he and I are distantly related - seriously. However, you guys don't want to know about some of my other relatives.

Well you got me there, I take it all back...he's a punk!