jump stop...travelling call???
 

Here's another rules question that I could use some clarification on. If a player makes a jump stop and then takes two steps followed by a shot, is that a travel? It always looks like one to me and I've seen some refs blow the whistle on it. However, I've seen plenty of refs just let it slide. So what's the rule surrounding the jump stop followed by two steps and shot?

Thanks for any advice.

2009-2010 Points of Emphasis....
 

A good question Coach and one that some officials, including myself, struggle with and try to improve upon.

From this year's POE's from the federation:

1. TRAVELING. The traveling rule has not changed; however, the committee is still concerned that the rule is not being properly enforced. Consequently, offensive players are gaining a tremendous advantage. Areas of specific concern are: the spin move, the step-through move, the jump stop, perimeter shooters taking an extra “hop” prior to releasing the try and ball handlers lifting the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball on the dribble. The key to determining the legality of those moves is to first find the pivot foot. Then, if the player moves a foot or the feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits, a traveling violation has occurred. Officials must know the rule, find the pivot foot and improve call accuracy; coaches must demand that players execute this skill properly, especially in practice; players must continue to develop this basic skill and practice performing legal moves.

Guidelines for Teaching and Officiating
A. Determine the pivot foot immediately.
B. At the start of the dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted.
C. After the dribble has ended, the player may lift pivot foot, but must release the ball on a pass or shot before the pivot foot returns to floor.
D. A player may never take two steps while in possession of the ball.

We have discussed this quite extensively here as we all try to improve.....

Hope this helps.

The issue is specifically addressed in the traveling rule (4-44).

Watch The Pivot Foot ...
 

There are a lot of different types of "jump stops", so it's difficult to generalize regarding the situation as described without further information, but once the pivot foot has been established, on shot (or a pass), the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. You're never going to get two steps after establishing a pivot foot in NFHS, and maybe NCAA. The NBA? Well, I'll leave that up to some of our NBA expert Forum members.

After a jump stop there are no steps or pivot allowed.

True for NFHS, NCAA, NBA and FIBA. Not true for WNBA. For a video example see jump stop and step. By the way, the NBA ref missed the call in this case as noted in the NBA video rulebook.

I've always defined a jump stop as jumping off one foot and simultaneously landing on two. What are other examples?

It's jumping off "pivot" foot.

Catching the ball in the air and landing on both feet simultaneously. Either foot can be the pivot in this case.

By dictionary definition of a step, lift one foot, move in any direction, return it to the floor, a player holding the ball may never take two steps.
Tell everybody you know.

Yes, but that is not a jump stop.

Except in the NBA which prior to the 2009/10 season modified the travel rule to include a player "may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball" in accordance with established practice.

Is that the "crab" jump stop? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

IIRC, "jump stop" is not defined in FED rules.

NCAA defines it with both meanings.

Coaches do use it with that meaning.

So, it might not be a "jump stop" to you, but it is to others.

Personally, instead of thinking of steps, I think in terms of the pivot foot. For me, that helped clarify when I should call the violation and when we have a legal move. The difficult part of the jump stop and travelling in general is deciding when the pivot is established. For those that watched the NCAA women's pre-season videos, when the ball is gathered is sometimes tough to decide.
As far as the NBA, I believe the rule states that any move that will end up on Sportscenter, sell a jersey to a kid, end in a dunk, sell a seat to a fan, or pad the stats of a "star" player is legal. :D

The NCAA rule book definition of a jump stop (see Rule 4-44 below) does not include catching the ball and landing on 2 feet. Similarly, while the NFHS rule book does not include the term jump stop, rule 44-2-b.2 specifically states ...
if one foot foot is on the floor ...

The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both.

This is the implicit NFHS definition of a jump stop and is totally consistent with the explicit NCAA definition.

NCAA Definition:

Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving
or dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands
simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
80 RULE 4 / DEFINITIONS
b. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot
and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on
the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both
feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot
can be established as the pivot foot).

All true...but many (maybe most) coaches use the term for the move described by bob. Since it is commonly used for both types of moves, it is often necessary to distinguish between the two whenever the term is discussed.

Really? What about:
That's exactly to what I was refering. Sorry if it wasn't clear (basketball is over, for now, for me, so all my posts are without specific references at hand).

Note that this example is preceded by a jump from the pivot foot. It is the jump from the pivot foot THEN landing on both feet simultaneously that makes for a jump stop.

Just because others are calling something else a jump stop doesn't make it so. We could go on forever about incorrect basketball terms.

(BTW, thanks to IndianaRef for the clarification.)

I suggest that you re-read all of Article 2 carefully. You left off the beginning which states the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot.

The bottom line is that by explicit NCAA rule definition and implicit NFHS definition, a jump stop involves jumping off of one foot (and therefore previously landing on one foot) and then landing on 2 feet. Simply catching the ball in the air and landing simultaneously on 2 feet does not constitute a jump stop.

Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

Yes, when I said "catch", I meant "end the dribble in the air". It was the example / play / movie in my head, so it was clear to me.

In any event, it's a difference without a distinction. Either foot can be the pivot foot in either case.

In the "other" type of jump stop (catching the ball or ending the dribble on one foot, or landing on one foot and then jumping and landing on both), neither foot can be the pivot foot.

The point is that when someone asks a question about a jump stop, the correct answer often depends on their definition of jump stop.

So . . .

Player A is dribbling towards the basket and leaves the floor with both feet while dribbling and then gathers the ball once in the air (pro hop, jump stop, whatever you want to call it) landing with both feet simultaneously.

They may then pivot, moving one foot towards the basket and follow that by letting both front and back foot leave the floor to shoot without traveling.

Correct.

That can be a problem. When people can simply make up definitions to suit themselves, it can only cause confusion and rule myths for everyone else.

Panther's example is certainly a legal move, but it's not a jump stop. While the NFHS doesn't have a definition, the NCAA does, and I believe that's one we should all adopt. While I've never heard of any confusion over "jump stop," it may not be a bad idea to get that term into Rule 4.

In the end, it's all about being on the same page.

Do you have something that gives Panther's move a name?

We just have to accept that, sometimes, there will be terminology in use that doesn't precisely match the book. This term is so widely used to describe both moves that there is no point in arguing that one is not a jump stop....they both are.

It is simply the legal establishment and subsequent legal movement of a pivot foot. It is not a jump stop. The original poster posed the question of is it legal to take a step after a jump stop. The answer is unequivocally no for 4 of the major rules codes (NFHS, NCAA, NBA and FIBA). The WNBA rules explicitly allow it.

As bainsey alluded to, this discussion points to the importance of using definitions as provided by the rules bodies rather than as commonly assumed by coaches and others.

Try this name - Hop Stop
 

When training on the legal pivot movements around a jump stop, I refer to the play where the player catches the ball in the air (catches on a pass, rebound, or ends dribble) lands on one foot and then alights to 2 feet simultaneously as a "HOP STOP". This is a subset of all Jump stops - difference being when control of the ball is established before landing on (alighting off) 1 foot or after landing on one foot.

Now you got the idea. Forget about "jump stops" or "hop steps"(whateverthehell they are), etc. completely and just call "traveling".

T-R-A-V-E-L-I-N-G!!

That way we won't have stoopid 2-page discusions like these that just confuse newer officials.

I don't know about newer officials but I know there were plenty of officials scratching their heads at the NCAA preseason meetings.
To me the key take away point is when the pivot foot is established. If you get that, it makes the play somewhat easier. It is a tough move to describe, it is a sort of "have to see it" play.
As a federal judge and a congressman were famously quoted "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it" (paraphrased, sorry Mr Flint):)

Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964)
 

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description (hard-core pornography); and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture (The Lovers) involved in this case is not that." (Justice Potter Stewart, regarding obscenity)

I'm definitely not going to post an image here.

I'm glad SOMEONE picked that up.

Two counterpoints here:

First, it's not a jump stop, for aformentioned reasons here.

Second, we have enough difficulty battling rule myths and misconceptions out there. These myths and general ignorance are, often times, the basis for misunderstandings about our work and rulings. We don't need to add "jump stop" to the list of misunderstood terms, when we already have so many other with which to deal.

You don't to argue what the correct term is. Simply state it. If they don't like it, you're not the one starting the argument.

Or one could simply adhere to the definitions given in the NCAA rules book! :p

Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving
or dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands
simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
b. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot
and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on
the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both
feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot
can be established as the pivot foot).

Looks like it is a jump stop...take a look at Nevada's post just above where he cites the NCAA rule. It does indeed define BOTH moves as a "jump stop".

Jump stop definition.

What part of jump off one foot and land on 2 is unclear?

Do see the NCAA rule below. The "Did you see that jump stop?" article in the current issue of Referee magazine also restates the jump stop definition emphasizing jump off one font and land on two as follows:

A player may catch the ball while airborne, land on one foot and then jump to land on both feet simultaneously. or may catch the ball while on one foot and then jump to two simultaneously. The key is from one foot alone to two feet together. Any other variation is traveling.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving
or dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
b. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).[/QUOTE]

And that statement highlighted in red is complete and utter nonsense, as well as being misleading. There IS another variation that isn't traveling. It very conveniently leaves out the third legal alternative---->an airborne player landing on one foot followed by the other. In that case, the first foot to land is the pivot foot and it sureashell is NOT traveling.

In case anybody's wondering, that's NCAA rule 4-70--3(a)2. It's exactly the same as NFHS rule 4-43-2(a). The traveling rules haven't changed in the last 50 years.

Again, all this nonsense is doing is just confusing the hell outa everybody imho. Forget about the terminology of stoopid jump stops and just learn the traveling rules. It's that freaking simple. And if any coach ever questions a traveling call, your reply is just as simple...."Coach, your player established their pivot foot after landing. Then your player lifted that pivot foot and brought it back down again while still holding the ball. That's traveling." And that's also it! End of conversation, turn back to coach, put ball back into play, Adios, amigos!

Lah me....paralysis through analysis again. :rolleyes:

Of course what you described is not traveling. That one line of the article should have been better written and the writer should have left if it out and avoided a distraction.

The point is that a jump stop involves jumping off of one foot and landing on two. Starting with you Jurassic, does anyone disagree with this and if so how do you reconcile it with the NCAA rule definition?

A secondary question is does anyone, starting with you Jurassic, disagree that after a jump stop, no pivot foot is available?

Please answer the questions.

Whose definition of jump stop are we using to answer these questions? hehehehehe:D

1) Agreed

2) Disagree. The NCAA rule says "either foot can be established as the pivot foot" under one type of jump stop.

And there's the rules citation to back up Bob.

And that's exactly why this discussion is causing so damn much confusion. You've got two completely different and disparate actions rules-wise, with both being classified as "jump stops".

Bob, does this quote taken directly from the 2009/2010 NCAA women's basketball points of emphasis change your position?

The shooter may legally perform a jump stop prior to releasing the try if she is moving or dribbling, and with one foot on the court, she jumps off that foot and simultaneously lands on both feet. From that position she may jump and release a try, but may not pivot on either foot.

Why would it? Bob's referring to one type of jump stop, and this ruling refers to another. :shrug:

No.

The quote says nothing about the "type 2" (from 4-44.2) jump stop. It deals exclusively with the "type 1" (4-44.1) jump stop.

A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot onthe playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

I think Bob and I (and you?) are almost in agreement. I missed the allowable NCAA pivot foot movement after a jump stop from one foot to 2 on the dribble. Even in that case the definition of a jump stop requires jumping from one foot to 2.

Here's what Bob and I agree upon. By NCAA rules definition

1. a jump stop involves jumping from 1 foot and landing simultaneously on 2
2. in the specific case noted, establishment of a pivot foot is allowed


I'm in full agreement with Bob if he can go for: by NCAA rule, a jump stop always involves jumping from 1 foot and landing on 2 feet simultaneously.

How about it Bob?

But the problem is, this definition of jump stop, in and of itself, means nothing.
The key to whether a pivot is allowed after the stop is when the dribble ended, if the dribble ends with both feet off the floor, it doesn't matter whether the dribbler jumped off one foot or both.

Correct.

However, the term as used by many coaches, players and fans has a broader meaning, so my caveat about defining the term remains.

There is a difference between the NCAA and NFHS rules that I was unaware of. While the NCAA allows a pivot foot in the cited situation, the NFHS does not.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:

3. On one foot, the palyer may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.

Actually, I believe the bottom line is the same. The player may pivot only if he ends the dribble with both feet off the floor. Then, if he lands on one foot followed by the other, the first to touch is the pivot. If he lands on both simultaneously, either can be the pivot.

Main difference is NFHS does not muddy up the water by defining jump stop.

THe difference is NOT what you seem to be saying it is. In fact, both rules agree. These two rules are NOT talking about the same situation

Let's label the actions that are occuring as follows:

A = Airborne
C = Catch the ball
O = Landing on and Jumping from one foot
T = Land on two feet
P = Pivot

This situation, using my labels as defined above, is

A - O - A - C - A - T - P (pivot is legal here)

This situation, using my labels as defined above, is

A - C - A - O - A - T - P (pivot is illegal here)

Note that the point of the "Catch" is different between these two.

One has the ball being caught after the jump from one foot (pivot allowed) where the other has the ball being caught before the jump (no pivot allowed).

Both sequences are judged the same in both rule sets...they're just written a bit differently.

Sammy, Give Me A Little Traveling Music ...
 

Many believe that the toughest call for basketball officials is the block/charge call. Yes, it's a tough call, especially when the official is unprepared for the play, and the call.

When I'm asked about my toughest calls, I always answer traveling. We probably see a lot more traveling/no traveling calls in a game than block/charges, and speaking for myself, I'm sure that if I broke down video from all of my games, that I would have made the wrong traveling call/noncall more than any other violation, or foul. Knowing the rule and definition to properly make this call is the beginning. Then the official has to be able to properly recognize these "moves" on the court as being legal, or illegal. Just because it looks "odd" doesn't mean it's a violation, and just because it looks like a "basketball move" doesn't mean it's legal.

I think that this thread shows the difficulty of properly calling, or not calling, traveling.

There are absolutely NO differences between the NCAA and NFHS traveling rules. NCAA rule 4-70 and NFHS rule 4-43 are identical and always have been.

What is confusing is the NCAA using different definitions for a "jump stop", with each different definition also being covered by a different rule. Apples and freaking oranges iow. And that's exactly why imo we should just forget about using "jump stop" terminology completely and simply use the appropriate and relevant rules reference instead.

Good catch and interesting approach. NFHS 4-44-2b (see below) is a closer but not exact match to the cited NCAA wording. Using your approach what do you have comparing these 2?

In the NFHS rules, any reference to a pivot foot after jumping off one foot and landing on 2 says it is not allowed. Unlike the NCAA rule, there is no reference that says it is allowed. I'll try to run this up the flag through my state interpreter to see if we can get a definitive NFHS clarification. Here is how I would pose the question:

Under NFHS rules, is there any circumstance that a player in control of the ball can jump off one foot, land on two and have a pivot foot available?

--------------------------
NFHS Rule 4
Section 44. Traveling
Article 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows

b. If one foot is on the floor:

2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in that case.


NCAA Rule 4
Section 44. Jump Stop
A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).

Is there really this much discussion about the jump stop? :confused: The rule seems real clear to me:

1.) If a player catches the ball/ends the dribble with a foot on the ground, jumps, and lands on both feet, then the player can't pivot.

2.) If jumps off of one foot, catches the ball/ends the dribble, then lands on both feet, either foot can be the pivot foot.

Coaches and players refer to both as a jump stop and the NCAA rule defines both as such. It has been my experience that you see play 2 done more, especially off the dribble.

In the NFHS rule you quote, the player has ended his dribble with one foot on the floor. It's the same as the first part of the NCAA rule you've quoted so many times.

In the second part of the NCAA rule you have above, the dribble does not end with one foot on the floor.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

Yes, if he ends his dribble while airborne, the same as the NCAA rule.

And you're still missing the point!!!!!!

In #1 (NFHS rule 4-44-2(b)2 that you cited above), The player caught the ball(ended their dribble) with one foot ON the floor.

In #2 above( NCAA rule 4-44(jump stop), the player caught the ball and ended their dribble with both feet OFF the court.

These are two completely different and disparate acts, and both rulesets treat them as such. And both rulesets are exactly the same when it comes to determination of the pivot foot for #1 and #2. You're trying to compare 2 acts that aren't comparable. And that's why you're confusing the hell outa everybody.

Correct...

....but all references in the NFHS book are preceded with "A1 catches the ball then..." The NFHS assumption is that until the time A1 catches the ball, what happened before doesn't really matter.

...and the NCAA reference being discussed states that A1 jumps from one foot, then catches the ball. It doesn't really matter that it is form one foot. A player can also jump from two feet, then catch the ball, land on two feet simultaneously, and pivot with either foot.

A player who hasn't caught the ball yet can jump off of one (or even two feet) without restriction. That is all the NCAA rule is saying. The NFHS rule is the same but it is not so explicitly spelled out.

Bob, shouldn't the caveat be reserved for those that use the term improperly? Don't we gradually see a far bigger mess and overall confusion when we allow terms to get away from their definition?

Except....

This term is not actually defined. It is merely referenced in the process of describing a move in the traveling definition.

That doesn't exclude other valid meanings.

Then what did Nevada post earlier?

The definition of traveling (or not)...not the definition of a jump stop.

It says that it is not traveling when a player executes a jump stop as described. It doesn't say anything one way or the other about that being the only kind of jump stop.

Actually Bob's definition of a "jump stop" is the most common one used in coaching. This One Foot-to-Two Feet "jump stop" is still a travel as far as I am concerned. Of course, I don't call it a travel 'cause we're not s'posed to.....

I posted the NCAA definition of "jump stop" given in the NCAA rules book.
I believe that Camron is making the point that the NFHS does not have such a definition in any of its publications.

Agreed.