after patient whistle
 

A1 gets bumps by B1 going to the hoop, but he is going to score an easy layup so I hold the whistle. Then, at the last moment B1 fouls a little harder and prevents the basket. I blow the whistle and give A1 two shots.

Coach B is upset. He saw the early bump and wants the foul before the shot.

If I have a patient whistle and end up with multiple calls, I get to pick which one, right? It doesn't seem I should have to sell this too much.

Here's the thing, if the first "bump" didn't prevent A1 from getting his easy layup, it wasn't a foul; it was incidental contact.

I might consider the first bump incidental contact which didn't cause an advantage for B1, yet the second contact definitely caused the advantage and hence the missed shot - TWEET!

Snaqs types faster than me..... :(

Who cares about Coach B? If you judged that the initial contact was not a foul, stick to your guns, man!

"Coach, I saw the contact and judged that it was incidental. We're shooting two."

Also, if he presses it and it's summer ball, I might suggest he find a rule book and look up the definitions of "foul" and "incidental contact."

Nah, I'd just say "first contact wasn't a foul." Then get the ball in play and move on if the coach lets you. If he doesn't, we get to shoot two more free throws.

Always consider the coach's angle. He likely wouldn't have asked for that foul on the first contact had the second one not been called.

If you found the first not to be advantageous contact, simply say so.

Actually, the coach was not a big problem (though my post makes it sound like it)- he accepted my explanation.

I am still learning this whole patient whistle thing, and it is improving my game.

Sometimes, patient whistle means calling something incidental because you can see how it is going to turn out. Other times, patient whistle means a delayed call while you wait to see how it turns out. I am still working on when each one is right.

Several years ago, in my first ever varsity game, I had a play near the division line in which A1 (with the ball) was bumped by B1. I waited, A1 wobbled, I waited, A1 stepped illegally. I called the foul. It took just a couple of seconds, but by the time I called the foul, B1 was about 10 feet away. I'd do it again the same way.

The most common one is your scenario, where the bump does absolutely nothing and if you call it, you're taking away a layup. I've made the call and taken crap from the coach for taking his layup away. I've passed on the call and taken crap only to have the coach agree with me when I told him why I passed on the contact.

Sounds like anticipating a call. Incidental is not a foul, by rule. Care to elaborate?

I mean that incidental depends on what happens and skill level. If the bump in the OP had caused the dribbler to lose the ball, it would not be incidental. But, it didn't and he was still on track for his layup, so it was incidental.

Gotcha! Upgrading what was incidental to a foul after seeing the whole play is good thing :)

I'll just add that just because a player loses the ball after a bump does not mean there was a foul. You have to judge whether the bump caused it or not; sometimes players just lose the ball and any previous contact, no matter how recent, did not cause it.

And if B2 swoops out of nowhere to cleanly swat the "easy" lay-up?

Now do you whistle the initial bump?

I am probably not a very good official, but at that point I am thinking "Well, what caused that ball to not go in the basket? Was it that bump, or the fact that B2 just sent it into the stands?"

I got nothing then.

Why? What did the bump do?

Cause A1 to get to the hoop a bit slower?

And not get off the ground as high as he/she could have.

That would be a tough call to make, it could be sold with some verbal at the spot & strong mechnics though...

It wouldn't have a hard time selling it because I wouldn't try. I don't think I've ever seen a bump like that slow a player down that much, so I can't imagine B2 getting to a shot he obviously wouldn't have gotten to otherwise. If the slow down is that significant, I'll get the initial bump sooner.

This is why I am still learning "patient whistle".

I had another call last night where I passed on a bump because the ball handler had a wide open jumper, which he missed. I don't think the bump was the cause, but it is a judgment call.

That's why they pay us the big bucks... Wait, I forgot I volunteered last night!

I am in the same stage as the OP. And, have used the same approach as you outlined in your experience, Snaq. All I can say is, this is the stuff that makes what we do so much fun. It's hard to beat working in concert with your partner on both ends and using a patient whistle. It's especially evident when a coach or player or fan freaks about a "late call" and you and your partner(s) KNOW you got it right because seeing the play through is higher level decision making.

Good good stuff.

Don't know what you mean by this. You deemed the first contact incidental, so that play is over and done with. Then you have subsequent contact and you judge it a foul.

Fixed it. Didn't say it very well the first time.

No Two Timers Allowed On The Forum ...
 

How could you do that to Sandra Bullock, America's Sweetheart?

According to the papers at the supermarket, he was an 11-timer.

Shooting for the Master's record?

If The News Fits, Print It ...
 

Great source of information. That's where I get all my answers to basketball rules questions posted here on the Forum.

I agree with other posters that the first bump would be considered marginal contact and should be a no call.

Coaches at the High School & Collegiate level don't understand the idea of "habitual shooting motion." Part of the reason why they don't understand is that even at the top levels of NCAA basketball, we see play after play where shooting fouls are blown on the floor by respected veteran officials.

We are starting to see the new wave of NCAA basketball leadership (John Adams, Dave Libbey) being vocal about recognizing when the habitual motion begins, so I expect all of us to get better in this regard and in turn gain buy-in from the coaches.

The key to it all is a patient whistle. If you blow too early, you risk marginal and-ones that can screw up the flow of your game.

"marginal" should be restated as "incidental."

+1

Too much confusion is created if used in that context. Marginal contact may or may not be a foul, by rule. Severe contact may or may not be a foul, by rule. Incidental contact is never a foul, by rule. And of course, illegal contact is always a foul, by rule.

What an official has to determine is whether the contact should be deemed either "incidental" or "illegal".

So what if an opponents teammate pushes him into an airborne shooter? its "incidental" according to definition?? but the contact is not marginal, so......

Whether its an incident or an accident, illegal contact is illegal contact. I can jump non vertical and see that i'm illegal and draw my hands back in a "im not trying to foul" manner but that doesn't forgo the fact that my trajectory is still illegal, incident or not.

I think we get to hung up on marginal and incidental. If you use either I know what you mean, as does everyone else. I was just trying to make a point with the above. No offense

Substantively, I agree, but the reason is that the rules define 'incidental' but not 'marginal'.

If 'marginal' means 'incidental', then we don't need the word 'marginal'. If it means something else, then it's not going to mark the distinction between legal and illegal contact.

And therein lies the rub....whatever the hell that means....I've never seen a rub lie...or lay for that matter...but I digress....

We really don't need the words "marginal" OR "severe" when it comes to defining contact. The contact is either a foul or it is not a foul. That's why all we need is the adjectives "incidental" and "illegal".

Incidental contact isn't a foul. Illegal contact is a foul.

KISS.

Marginal in the context I have heard it (always in camp coming from the mouths of conference supervisors and/or D1 officials) is "contact not worthy of a foul call".

So it's not exactly a technical term, just the "in" term in some regions :D to assess whether or not a foul should have been called.

Since no one mentioned "accidental" until now, I'm assuming you're confusing the definition of "incidental." "Accidental" is not the same thing as "incidental." One is defined in the rules, and the other isn't even used. I don't give a crap about accidental here, and neither do the rules.

The point is, "incidental" contact is not illegal. "Marginal" contact can be illegal, and severe contact can be incidental.

Here is your list of antonyms for purposes of this thread:
1. incidental - illegal
2. accidental - intentional
3. marginal - severe

Each word is only mutually exclusive with its antonym, its relationship to the others is not absolute.

I think it's like "on the floor." In context, it generally means "incidental" and the thought process is correct. However, it gives the impression that the foul is determined by the severity of the contact.

Wait, what?