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Mark Padgett

Sun Mar 28, 2010 08:27pm

Politically incorrect?

In this day and age, I'm somewhat surprised that announcers (and coaches, for that matter) refer to defense in women's games as "man-to-man". I know it's kind of petty to think that's insulting, but with things the way they are, especially since Title 9 came into being, one would think that phrase would not continue to be used in those games.

Again - no big deal to me, but I'm just surprised the term is still used.

And no - I'm not suggesting they say "chick-to-chick", although it would be more entertaining to male viewers.

Loudwhistle

Sun Mar 28, 2010 08:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 671195)

Well in that case Mark we need American Airlines to get of the cock pit in their jets! :D

mbyron

Sun Mar 28, 2010 08:51pm

'Man-to-man' refers to a traditional defensive strategy, and nobody's come up with a plausible gender inclusive alternative.

Weirder to me is the coach shouting to her girls: "find your man!" Makes it feel like Sadie Hawkins Day! :)

grunewar

Sun Mar 28, 2010 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 671203)

Weirder to me is the coach shouting to her girls: "find your man!" Makes it feel like Sadie Hawkins Day! :)

Alright, that took me waaaay back. Wow! :eek:

Mark Padgett

Sun Mar 28, 2010 09:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 671203)

Makes it feel like Sadie Hawkins Day! :)

For those of you not familiar with Lil' Abner:

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images...awkins-day.jpg

Nevadaref

Sun Mar 28, 2010 09:47pm

I think that Juulie once got a little huffy about this a few years back and recommended that it be called "person-to-person" defense. :rolleyes:

Juulie Downs

Sun Mar 28, 2010 09:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 671219)

I think that Juulie once got a little huffy about this a few years back and recommended that it be called "person-to-person" defense. :rolleyes:

Actually, I acknowledged that "person-to-person" would be ridiculous. What I advocated for was "one-to-one". I still don't understand why that hasn't caught on, but I don't hear or see any girls/women players or coaches of women or girls using this. I agree that "Get your man" or "pick up your man" sounds strange. But it seems that others don't, or they don't worry about it. So I've quit mentioning it or thinking about it. If I'm gonna fight a hopeless battle, it's gonna be about something more important.

Nevadaref

Sun Mar 28, 2010 09:59pm

Thanks for setting the record and my memory straight.

just another ref

Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:11pm

Many years ago, when the women's game was first achieving national prominence, I remember a coach saying something like:

We play man to man defense. Person to person is a telephone call.

Hear all the young guys saying huh?

Adam	Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 671203)

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 671206)

Alright, that took me waaaay back. Wow! :eek:

the high school near us has a notice for their upcoming Sadie Hawkins dance.

Adam	Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs (Post 671222)

If I'm gonna fight a hopeless battle, it's gonna be about something more important.

We should talk to Billy about copywriting this for you. :)

Raymond

Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:12pm

I've heard plenty of female coaches of female teams say "man-to-man" when referring to non-zone defenses.

Welpe

Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:58pm

I've heard more than a few female coaches yell "MAN UP!" to their female players. Always makes me wonder a little. :)

Camron Rust

Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:10am

May I direct your attention to Man | Define Man at Dictionary.com and the three meanings quoted below.

man

<SUP>1</SUP> <SCRIPT language=javascript>AC_FL_RunContent = 0;</SCRIPT><SCRIPT type=text/javascript>var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "17", "15", "<img src=\"http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif\" border=\"0\" alt=\"man pronunciation\" />", "6");interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high");interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t");interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.ask.com%2Fdictstatic%2Fd ictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FM00%2FM0096500.mp3&clkL ogProxyUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2 Fwhatzup.html&t=a&d=d&s=di&c=a&ti=1&ai=51359&l=dir &o=0&sv=00000000&ip=60e1fc05&u=audio"); interfaceflash.addParam('wmode','transparent');int erfaceflash.write();</SCRIPT><OBJECT id=speaker class=inlineimg title="Big Grin" border=0 codeBase="codebase=" alt="" classid="clsid:D</OBJECT><NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> /mæn/ http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dic...on_default.gif Show Spelled [man] http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dic...on_default.gif Show IPA noun,pluralmen, verb,manned, man·ning, interjection
–noun
2. a member of the species Homo sapiens or all the members of this species collectively, without regard to sex: prehistoric man.
3. the human individual as representing the species, without reference to sex; the human race; humankind: Man hopes for peace, but prepares for war.
4. a human being; person: to give a man a chance; When the audience smelled the smoke, it was every man for himself.

The proper definition of the word is pretty clear in that it can properly be used in both ways. To argue that it is incorrect to use man in the context of females is simply being PC just to be PC.

Nevadaref

Mon Mar 29, 2010 01:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 671241)

May I direct your attention to Man | Define Man at Dictionary.com and the three meanings quoted below.

man

<sup>1</sup> <script language="javascript">AC_FL_RunContent = 0;</script><script type="text/javascript">var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "17", "15", "<img src=\"http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif\" border=\"0\" alt=\"man pronunciation\" />", "6");interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high");interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t");interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.ask.com%2Fdictstatic%2Fd ictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FM00%2FM0096500.mp3&clkL ogProxyUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2 Fwhatzup.html&t=a&d=d&s=di&c=a&ti=1&ai=51359&l=dir &o=0&sv=00000000&ip=60e1fc05&u=audio"); interfaceflash.addParam('wmode','transparent');int erfaceflash.write();</script><object id="speaker" codebase="codebase=" classid="clsid<img src=" images="" smilies="" biggrin.gif="" alt="" title="Big Grin" smilieid="4" class="inlineimg" border="0"></object><noscript></noscript> /mæn/ http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dic...on_default.gif Show Spelled [man] http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dic...on_default.gif Show IPA noun,pluralmen, verb,manned, man·ning, interjection
–noun
2. a member of the species Homo sapiens or all the members of this species collectively, without regard to sex: prehistoric man.
3. the human individual as representing the species, without reference to sex; the human race; humankind: Man hopes for peace, but prepares for war.
4. a human being; person: to give a man a chance; When the audience smelled the smoke, it was every man for himself.

The proper definition of the word is pretty clear in that it can properly be used in both ways. To argue that it is incorrect to use man in the context of females is simply being PC just to be PC.

Camron, I agree, but there are some individuals out there who think that such terms and pronouns do not accord females the proper amount of respect. Perhaps a solid course in the English language would be helpful for them.

JRutledge

Mon Mar 29, 2010 01:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 671247)

You are right about what the definition might be, but everything is not about what the English definition says. Some definitions are based on social or academic definitions that apply to issues like this. And often English definitions change because of social and cultural changes. I am not saying that I disagree with what Cameron stated, but I just realize that the dictionary definition does not always fit to a level of understanding or acceptance. Then again, I do not see a way to get away from the usage of "man to man" because you are referring to women in a particular sport.

Peace

Nevadaref

Mon Mar 29, 2010 01:41am

Rut makes a good point that terms and words mean different things to different folks. Unfortunately, one cannot know the jargon of a particular group unless the individual is either part of that group or studies it.
The default is the standard definition, and yes, even those do change as he points out. Language is an evolving device of communication.
In many cases, what someone says is not what is understood. When that happens we must identify which party is at fault for the miscommunication. Should we point the finger at the one using the nonstandard definition of a term or the one using it out of its expected context within a particular social circle?

BillyMac

Mon Mar 29, 2010 06:14am

'Nough Said ...

"That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." (Neil Armstrong, July 21, 1969)

Jurassic Referee

Mon Mar 29, 2010 06:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 671265)

"That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." (Neil Armstrong, July 21, 1969)

He left out wimmen.:eek:

Neil Armstrong shoulda been horse-whipped for saying that!

Horse-whipped, I tell ya!

Whipped with a horse!

Stoopid monkey thread.....

Jurassic Referee

Mon Mar 29, 2010 06:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 671195)

I know <font color = red>it's kind of petty to think that's insulting</font>, but with things the way they are, especially since Title 9 came into being, one would think that phrase would not continue to be used in those games.

That's insulting? Disagree. That's amazingly petty. Astoundingly petty. Beyond belief petty. PC out-of-control petty.

Just my petty opinion.....

Welpe

Mon Mar 29, 2010 09:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 671265)

"That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." (Neil Armstrong, July 21, 1969)

An interesting bit of trivia is that he actually flubbed what he originally was going to say. He meant to say "That's one small step for a man..."

I guess he got a little caught up with the whole being the first person to step on the moon and all that. ;)

Juulie Downs

Mon Mar 29, 2010 09:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 671255)

When that happens we must identify which party is at fault for the miscommunication. Should we point the finger at the one using the nonstandard definition of a term or the one using out of its expect context within a particular social circle?

Why does there have to be a fault? mis communication, per se, is almost never a "fault" issue, it's simply a breakdown in the wiring.

That being said, I don't think feminist objections to using "man" to refer to any human being have anything to do with miscommunication, but that's not a point I'm going to argue. And it certainly was not my point when I was discussing it several years ago. Just saying...

mbyron

Mon Mar 29, 2010 09:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 671271)

That's insulting? Disagree. That's amazingly petty. Astoundingly petty. Beyond belief petty. PC out-of-control petty.

Just my petty opinion.....

IMO it's not merely PC. For a very brief, fact-based account of gendered pronouns, see Carolyn Jacobson's (Penn) handout:
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~cjacobso/gender.html

Jurassic Referee

Mon Mar 29, 2010 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 671293)

IMO it's not merely PC. For a very brief, fact-based account of gendered pronouns, see Carolyn Jacobson's (Penn) handout:
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~cjacobso/gender.html

The "handbook of non-sexist writing", eh? :rolleyes: "Mankind" is now a bad word? :rolleyes:

"Fact-based"?

OK.......

This is a no-win argument and a wobw. I'm done.

DLH17

Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:02am

I wonder how many man hours....errrrr....person hours were logged in the basketball officiating industry in 2009?

Ever watch American Idol? That judge named Randy calls everyone, even the ladies - "dude". Awkward. Ok...that has nothing to do with hoops. :o

Pantherdreams

Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:30am

I think the viewership for women's basketball would go up considerably if they called it "girl on girl". Just sayin . . .

bainsey

Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 671238)

I've heard more than a few female coaches yell "MAN UP!" to their female players. Always makes me wonder a little.

Reminds me of something a friend told me years ago. "My son's hockey team has a girl now. It gives new meaning to the phrase 'man down.'"

Anyway, I've heard some coaches use "player to player." I like accuracy, but I think this takes it too far.

The late, great George Carlin once said, "I believe it should be 'humankind' instead on 'mankind,' but if you tell me that thing in the street is a 'person-hole cover', I think that's going too far."

Mark Padgett

Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:44am

Another word that has lost it's gender specificity over the years, especially in sports, is "guys". It's become relatively generic. I hear coaches, including female coaches, call female players "guys" all the time. I virtually never hear "gals" any more in that context.

One term I hope never loses it's original meaning is "hot mom". :p

BillyMac

Mon Mar 29, 2010 07:14pm

""Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 671286)

An interesting bit of trivia is that he actually flubbed what he originally was going to say. He meant to say "That's one small step for a man...". I guess he got a little caught up with the whole being the first person to step on the moon and all that.

Speaking the line, he accidentally dropped the "a", from his remark, rendering the phrase a contradiction (as man in such use is synonymous with mankind). Armstrong later said he "would hope that history would grant me leeway for dropping the syllable and understand that it was certainly intended, even if it was not said – although it might actually have been." It has since been claimed that acoustic analysis of the recording reveals the presence of the missing "a". A digital audio analysis conducted by Peter Shann Ford, an Australia-based computer programmer, claims that Armstrong did, in fact, say "a man", but the "a" was inaudible due to the limitations of communications technology of the time. Ford and James R. Hansen, Armstrong's authorized biographer, presented these findings to Armstrong and NASA representatives, who conducted their own analysis. The article by Ford, however, is published on Ford's own web site rather than in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and linguists David Beaver and Mark Liberman at Language Log were skeptical of Ford's claims. Armstrong has expressed his preference that written quotations include the "a" in parentheses.

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