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-   -   When does travel occur? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/57717-when-does-travel-occur.html)

just another ref Tue Mar 30, 2010 07:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 671527)
Well, if we ever work together let's hope this play only happens once, because it's going to be called differently depending on whose primary it is in. :cool:

While you're hoping, why not hope it never happens at all, which seems a pretty safe bet. I don't think I've ever seen it happen.

Raymond Tue Mar 30, 2010 08:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 671538)
While you're hoping, why not hope it never happens at all, which seems a pretty safe bet. I don't think I've ever seen it happen.

Yeah, but the jumping for a shot and dropping the ball does happen from time to time. ;)

mbyron Tue Mar 30, 2010 08:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 671516)
If the drop is all part of the original motion, or close enough that one can imagine such, treat it as an errant pass, and see what happens next. If the motion clearly stops, and there is a discernible pause, followed by a deliberate drop straight to the floor, it sounds like the start of a dribble to me, which means that it would be a travel.

"Discernible pause"? Really? Dude, now you're making sh!te up. (And: this isn't baseball.)

Raymond Tue Mar 30, 2010 08:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 671542)
"Discernible pause"? Really? Dude, now you're making sh!te up. (And: this isn't baseball.)

I think it's time for a poll :D

just another ref Tue Mar 30, 2010 08:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 671542)
"Discernible pause"? Really? Dude, now you're making sh!te up. (And: this isn't baseball.)

Yeah, kinda like calling a balk.:D Let me put it another way. A1 lifts the pivot and starts to step into the pass, but A2 has cut the other way and the pass is no longer available. Often you see A1 try to stop, but the ball comes out anyway. The decision to be made here is whether it was a pass or a fumble. But, if the motion obviously stops, A1 hesitates, then obviously, deliberately drops the ball straight to the floor, no way does this seem to me to be that he "threw, batted, or rolled the ball to another player."

Raymond Tue Mar 30, 2010 08:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 671548)
Yeah, kinda like calling a balk.:D Let me put it another way. A1 lifts the pivot and starts to step into the pass, but A2 has cut the other way and the pass is no longer available. Often you see A1 try to stop, but the ball comes out anyway. The decision to be made here is whether it was a pass or a fumble. But, if the motion obviously stops, A1 hesitates, then obviously, deliberately drops the ball straight to the floor, no way does this seem to me to be that he "threw, batted, or rolled the ball to another player."

And no way I call a travel without him touching the ball again.

Adam Tue Mar 30, 2010 08:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 671548)
Yeah, kinda like calling a balk.:D Let me put it another way. A1 lifts the pivot and starts to step into the pass, but A2 has cut the other way and the pass is no longer available. Often you see A1 try to stop, but the ball comes out anyway. The decision to be made here is whether it was a pass or a fumble. But, if the motion obviously stops, A1 hesitates, then obviously, deliberately drops the ball straight to the floor, no way does this seem to me to be that he "threw, batted, or rolled the ball to another player."

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 671549)
And no way I call a travel without him touching the ball again.

Yep, nothing specifies that the thrower needs to know his recipient, nor throw it directly to a player. I just don't understand the reluctance to let this play out.

just another ref Tue Mar 30, 2010 08:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 671552)
Yep, nothing specifies that the thrower needs to know his recipient, nor throw it directly to a player. I just don't understand the reluctance to let this play out.

In reality, this is much ado about very little. In most travel/illegal dribble cases like this, the violator does touch the ball again immediately. The reason for the reluctance is that nothing in the rules states that a second touch is necessary to define a dribble.

just another ref Tue Mar 30, 2010 09:06am

A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. About this time he slips on a wet spot and crashes to the floor. He doesn't touch the ball after the second bounce. All other players are still on the other side of the division line. Is this a violation?

Adam Tue Mar 30, 2010 09:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 671557)
In reality, this is much ado about very little. In most travel/illegal dribble cases like this, the violator does touch the ball again immediately. The reason for the reluctance is that nothing in the rules states that a second touch is necessary to define a dribble.

You're correct, it's not required in the rules (I reluctantly admit to liking the FIBA definition better here), but nothing requires it to be called, either. It's judgment, and frankly, as long as I can, within the rules, justify playing on, I'm going that route anyway. IOW, if I'm not absolutely positive it's a violation (dribble in this case), I'm not going to call it and the only way I can be absolutely positive it's a dribble is when A1 is the first to touch the ball in this scenario.

Adam Tue Mar 30, 2010 09:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 671558)
A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. About this time he slips on a wet spot and crashes to the floor. He doesn't touch the ball after the second bounce. All other players are still on the other side of the division line. Is this a violation?

It depends, of course, on whether you judge that 2nd bounce to be a dribble. Personally, if he doesn't touch it, I'd be inclined to let it play out until the rules tell me I can't. :)

Raymond Tue Mar 30, 2010 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 671558)
A1 tries to save the ball under his own basket and tumbles into the bleachers. B gains control and goes the other way. As A1 returns to the court, A2 makes a steal and passes ahead to A1 at the free throw line. A1 turns to take it to the basket. He bounces the ball twice, but he uses both hands for both bounces. ...

End of the play right there...my whistle is blowing.

Adam Tue Mar 30, 2010 09:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 671564)
End of the play right there...my whistle is blowing.

Even though he doesn't touch the ball after the 2nd bounce?
Here's how I read his play:'
1. Bounce with two hands.
2. Catch with two hands.
3. Bounce.
4. Slip.
5. Ball flies away.

Raymond Tue Mar 30, 2010 09:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 671566)
Even though he doesn't touch the ball after the 2nd bounce?
Here's how I read his play:'
1. Bounce with two hands.
2. Catch with two hands.
3. Bounce.
4. Slip.
5. Ball flies away.

In this play he has already started his dribble and that 2nd bounce is part of the dribble. If however he attempted to catch the ball and fumbled it then no, I wouldn't have a violation.

Adam Tue Mar 30, 2010 09:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 671569)
In this play he has already started his dribble and that 2nd bounce is part of the dribble. If however he attempted to catch the ball and fumbled it then no, I wouldn't have a violation.

Fair enough.


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