A1 in her front court picked up her dribble.
B1 is 12" away and pressuring with hands vertical.
A1 pivots away from B1 with a long step which puts her at an extended angle away from B1.
B1 steps over the pivot foot and leg of A1 while continuing pressure. No contact yet.
B1 takes another 1/2 step toward A1 and causes contact and A1 immediately stands into B1 and clears B1 with an elbow.

Tweet! Tweet!

Lead and Trail have Fists raised, Lead (me... had the block and saw the elbow clear out)holds fist; Trail had the player control and immediately signaled (he tried to hold back the PC but went to far).

Now what?

You could call a foul on the both of them. (FIBA) But from your story I read that the defender came into the cilinder of the offensive player, so you were pretty right...

ADR

[Edited by A Dutch Ref on Sep 11th, 2002 at 08:14 AM]

Hmmmm....sounds like this calls for a huddle between you and
your partner

"Pard, I know what you got but I have a block before the elbow."

Then the R goes to explain it to the coaches.

(a) Travelling. ;)
(b) Foul on the team that's ahead by 40 points.
(c) Go with the primary official's call.

My take,assuming the play was in an either-can-call area:
1)Gotta get together with your podner.
2)B1 caused the contact.Gotta be a foul on B1.
3)Ignore the elbow,unless one of you is adamant that it was deliberate,unsportsmanlike or flagrant.In that case,you call a "T" on A1 for deadball contact,and you got yourselves a false double foul.
4)R explains call to both coaches.
5)If an official called out of his primary,he gets to buy the brownpop after the game.

What call did you actually end up with,mick?

B1 was in A1's vertical space. A1 owns the space above the pivot foot. B1 would be responsible for most any contact in that space at that point. If A1 had left the elbow out, it would be a simple block by B1. If I had been calling it (without the complication of the partner), it would have been a block by B1, with a side conversation to A1 on the elbow (since the ball was dead and it wan't a candidate for an intentional or flagrant foul).

But, since the trail had signaled, the best bet is probably a double foul. It's not fair to A1 to ignore the initial foul that the lead was calling because the trail was too hasty in signalling.

If a discussion with my pard didn't end with it being a block, I would push for a double foul and let him make the call.

It may not look pretty, but I believe in getting it right...or as close as possible.

If B1 hadn't stepped in, I'd call PC, then the elbow, making a false double foul, as told by JR. But if B1 steps (or more likely scoots) into A1, causing contact, that's a block. Then the elbow has to be huge to become a dead ball T.

Didn't we agree last year, that if the player with the ball has the body balanced over only one leg, or even off balance, that the player's owned space is above and below the hips? Rather than above and below the feet? So B1 was legal as long as there was no contact?

B1 was legal with no contact in any case. Maybe rephrase the question?

I've either got a block or, depending upon the severity of the elbow, a double foul.

What was your solution Mick, and which one of you was calling out of your area?!! ;-)

This play took place in my partner's primary.
I knew he did not see the block, but as soon as the whistles went off and he signaled, the fans were reacting to the call.
He <u>then</u> came to me, told me he had a PC, and asked me what I had, I just nodded and said, "You own it."
Had he not signaled,(<i>and he almost pulled a muscle trying to bring it back</i>) we would have had a block.

With the crowd already reacting, I decided not to add "Official Indecisiveness" to that picture.

Mick, I tend to agree with what you did. Think about each coach's perspective. Coach A might complain about a first foul bump and might be a little upset. Coach B would see an offensive foul called and then you come an overrule your partner and change it to a block. Result- partner might go into the tank, Coach B is going to be pissed, looks like officials have no clue what they are doing out there. Now, if the first foul is simply obvious and your partner just absolutely blew the call then yes, I think you should get with your partner. But, by the way the play was described it seems like an elbow foul can be sold here even if not technically the correct call. Obviously, it would have been nice for your partner to hold their preliminary signal, but I would suck on my pride and talk calmly about this one in the lockerroom instead of create a situation we don't need to put in the game.

What I was asking was, Did the refs think the position (straddling A1's leg) was illegal, even without contact? Were they interpreting it as A1's space, and B1 violating that, even though there was no contact?

What I was asking was, Did the refs think the position (straddling A1's leg) was illegal, even without contact? Were they interpreting it as A1's space, and B1 violating that, even though there was no contact? [/B][/QUOTE]The point that Dirty Dan(who does dastardly deeds on dashing dogs)was trying to make was that B1's stance is always legal as long as there is no contact.B1's stance,without B1 moving,may,however,change to illegal as soon as contact is made.No contact = legal position = no foul.As soon as contact is made,the official then has to decide who is in who's space illegally,and then make the call accordingly.For instance,B1 can legally place their arns or hands directly over top of A1's head.It only becomes illegal when A1 jumps straight up to shoot or pass,and contacts B1's arms.I'm sure that I'm telling you something that you already know,but it's just a matter of semantics.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 12th, 2002 at 04:44 AM]

Except for the cheesy aliteration JR said what I would have
said. But maybe you're asking if B1 obtained legal guarding
position - both feet on the floor, torso facing, etc - even
though she was straddling A1's leg. I would say it depends
on who got there first. But legal guarding position is
useful for making calls involving screens or torso to torso
contact. I'm not so sure it applies here, but I'm open to
being convinced otherwise.

BTW, dirty dan's dastardly deed didn't detract from the dog's daily dance with life. Just made it easier to deal with ;)

Eli,
My partner did not blow the call, he was straight-lined on the block, but he saw the elbow clearly.
And, yes the clear-out was a pretty easy call in that we both saw it, ...and the play happened on the end of the favored team. ;)
mick

BTW, dirty dan's dastardly deed didn't detract from the dog's daily dance with life. Just made it easier to deal with ;) [/B][/QUOTE]Dog doesn't dare to dance a duet,though,does the dog?

Dog doesn't dare to dance a duet,though,does the dog? [/B][/QUOTE]

A deed demanding desire, which the Doc done deflated when he did the (ahem) deboning. Ya dig?

I'm saying that even straddling A1's leg B1 has legal guarding position, as long as B1 stops short of contact. At least, this is the position I thought we all agreed on a few months ago -- That A1's owned space was above and below the hips, and if the leg was extended out of that space, then the defender could straddle the leg.

I'm not even going to try the alliteration thing. Remember, I've got a life!

Here's the play again:

Quote:

A1 in her front court picked up her dribble. B1 is 12" away and pressuring with hands vertical. A1 pivots away from B1 with a long step which puts her at an extended angle away from B1. B1 steps over the pivot foot and leg of A1 while continuing pressure. No contact yet. B1 takes another 1/2 step toward A1 and causes contact and A1 immediately stands into B1 and clears B1 with an elbow.

3 things can happen here:

Because B1 took a 1/2 step into A1 & caused contact the
foul in this case has to be on B1 because B1 lost LGP when she stepped forward. We agree so far, I think.

If there had not been contact then the foul's on A1 due to
the elbow. Legal guarding position is not a factor on the
elbow IMO but B1 does obtain LGP even after the step
because she didn't cause contact when moving in. So far
it's easy, no?

Now, if instead of the elbow A1 had stepped back into B1
and caused torso-to-torso contact I could not have a block
on B1 because she can get as close to A1 as possible
without contact once she has LGP, and IMO she LGP.

So I guess the answer to your question is yes, B1 has
obtained LGP straddling A1's leg assuming there's no contact.

And I'm all alliterated out, now if only I oculd get a life too! :)

A deed demanding desire, which the Doc done deflated when he did the (ahem) deboning. Ya dig? [/B][/QUOTE]Doc did deed so that dog doesn't do deed.I dig!

Still not fair!:mad:

Mick, the way I read it you did not give the block signal at the time. Your partner did give the player control signal. The whistles were simultaneous. If that's the case, I think you did the right thing for this situation. Got together, partner had signallled player control, play on. If neither signalled at the time then you could've gone either way based on your discussion. If both signal, double foul. That would have been your only choice. Remember the Iowa State NCAA tournament a couple of years back. A double whistle for the ages!!! The officials were right that night even though they didn't work another game after that. The signal at the time of a double whistle could kill ya!

Doc did deed so that dog doesn't do deed.I dig!

Still not fair!:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]

Dude!

Yeah, Walter,
The double whistle can kill.
This partner and I often double-whistle over the past several years and this is the first time, that I remember, one of us signaled without waiting.
Because I saw both acts, and because I was calling the first act, yes, we would have favored the other team had we both waited.
Ofttimes, we have a foul-then-violation, or a violation-then-foul, which is another double-whistle sitch in which an easy decision is made when one of us sees both actions.
mick

Dude! [/B][/QUOTE]Poor dude is now a dudette,doofus!

I quit,before my IQ starts to sink into single digits...and I become a Bosox fan!:D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 12th, 2002 at 02:32 PM]

I don't remember the play you're talking about. Would you refresh my memory?

Chuck

It is a bad situation when you have double whistles and one gives the preliminary too soon. If your partner had not gone over to you and you just dropped I would see no problem
since this was his primary. But since he did come over to ask what you had there is already an element of indecision,
you may want to just get the play right. I know alot of other considerations could go into this, like level of play or score (was this a blowout). It already looks bad when you have to come together so you might as well leave with
the right call.

PAULK1,
Although I do not disagree with your words, I felt that by visibly agreeing with my partner that it "appeared" we were in agreement.
Whether I was right or wrong, a reversal of the preliminary signal, I felt, could have become ugly and all that comes with it. Then, would a reversal improve, or worsen, the game from that point? Dunno. ;)
mick
<HR>
Brain cramps hurt more than bottles.

mick from what you posted i would call an offensive foul. just because b1 contacted a1 does not mean it is a foul. if b1 had pushed a1 or dislodged her and made her travel, then a foul should be called on b1. to me its a1's fault for stepping back.....b1 did what was natural and just contacted her. a1 put herself at a disadvantage.
now to the part where you both had whistles and different signals. this is not like a run over play where it is difference of opinion. this is a timing play. if you came to your partner and said the block or pushed occurred before the clear out then that is a viable option. if the clearout is super obvious then you should probly go with the offensive foul. nobody is gonna buy block when a1 obviously creates space. just my read on the play. i am trying to imagine it exactly as you wrote it but then imaginations differ as well as opinions.

Very late in the game, Iowa State on defense when (I think they were playing Michigan State) an opposing player drives the lane from Center side and there's a crash in the paint. Lead comes out hard banging his fists against his hips while the Center is signalling the other way due to player control. Iowa State down a couple of points and Coach believes they are about to get the ball. Officials get together, go with double foul call and go to arrow which gives Michigan State the ball. Iowa State coach goes bananas and ends up getting double T'd and tossed.

Which is a great reason to bring back the "jump ball". While early in the game a jump ball possession is not as meaningful, a last minute jump ball can be critical to the outcome. With the actual jump, neither side would be too bent out of shape. They may not like it but both teams still have shot at getting the ball.

jump balls
 

I'll join the crusade to bring back the jump ball. I think the alternating possession rule is the dumbest rule in the game -- with the exception of when it is used in jr hi girls games . . . . If people are bent out of shape about game delays, then only bring it back for the last 2 minutes of the game and for OT . . . .