While this may be technically true because the US did not exist at the time, we did kinda play the agressor in one that happened in the late 1700's

And we kick their red-coated rear-ends :D

By the way, while all this has been interesting reading...what the hell do this have to do with wether that was a block or a charge?

It isinteresting to see the responses that my posts have had. I am not going to try and go through them one by one and respond - the time difference means that by the time I get back on line, I have got over 20 posts in this thread alone to catch up with.

However, a few points.

I should study the events surrounding WWII? I have a degree in Modern European History - specialising in Germany betwee 1920 and 1950 - but thanks for the tip.

Iraq is in violation to the conditions set down by the UN. This does not change the fact that the USA jumps the gun. The UN has not yet supported military action in Iraq, yet the USA has already committed to it.

The USA is the first country to support the UN when it suits them - but when the rest of the world supported Kyoto (sadly with the exception of Australia) America was didn't want to know about it.

I agree that the atomic weapons used on Japan prevented the deaths of tens of thousands of americans - they also caused the death of millions of Japanese.


I am not pushing any agenda, nor do I consider myself anti-American. I do strongly disagree with nations (or individuals) forcing (or attempting to force) their cutural, religious and economic belief structures on another person or nation. Unfortunately America seems to be one of the main offenders for doing this (have a look at Cuba).

Certainly I glossed over some points (or even failed to mention them) but that is human nature - especially when debating a hot topic. My point in all this conversation has been to try and show that America is not always on the side of the mighty, and that its opponents are not always wrong. Obviously some people here have mistaken this for an attack on America.

One suggestion for all of you is to not just base your view of the world on the American press. One of the great advantages of living in Australia is that we draw on a large multicultural base, and our media gets input from various international sources. Rather than just looking at CNN, NBC or Fox, why not watch the BBC Word Service, or Deutsche Welle. Believe me, the way that these news services broadcast events is very different to the slant put on it from American broadcasters.


Finally - as a couple of people here have already said - <b>history is subjective</B>. My father was born in Germany in 1943, and the history that he learnt in high school was radically different to the history that I was taught (and that many of you would have learnt). However, this does not mean that it is wrong - simply different.

Oh and by the way - call the travel - that way niether team is happy - but neither is overly upset :)

Re: Founding fathers
 

I think you need to look in the mirror, look at your family and look at the people around you and value their opinion. You have no clue what kind of metality that I have, because what I say here has nothing to do with real life. I do not live my life thru a computer screen. I feel sorry for people liked yourself that cannot realize that. I am pretty much like by the people around me and my family. That is what is important in life, not what anyone says here. But since we are talking about politics and values, I have every right as well as the millions of other people in this country that does not buy into your way of thinking. I am glad you think this country does no wrong, has never done any wrong and should be viewed around the world as the "Great Moral Leader." But many of us do not trust everything this government has stood for and stands for. Does not mean we hate this country, just means we do not always agree with it. And for those that want to rip me apart about that, I do not want to hear a single bad comment about our past President. Lord knows that many (I know I have heard that voiced here) are not Clinton lovers on this board. So just like those that question the morals of Clinton, I will and have questioned the morals of our current President and the decisions he might make.

I guess it is just un-American to have a different view point. Maybe someone needs to feel sorry for their own short comings.

Peace

If you want to see a more fun reaction of a team, call more charges. I love to hear them BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Lets face it - the charge is the best/most fun call to make in basketball. Especially when the offensive player scores, and you then wave off the basket.

I can clearly remember a game I did about 10 years ago - Under 18 men's representative game (sort of Junior High equivalent).

A4 got called for a charge while shooting a lay-up, at the time his team was up by 1 and there was less than a minute to play. It was a clear cut call (IMHO), and it was also his 5th foul. He followed up by refusing to leave the court, and spiked the ball at my feet - resulting in a technical (on the bench). The assistant coach (A4's father) ran onto the court hurling abuse at me - resulting in a 2nd bench technical - and the coach being thrown out. The assistant coach became the head coach - and immediately got his 2nd T and got tossed as well.

Team B got 6 free throws and the ball back - made 5 of the six and then hit a wide open three pointer. Ended up winning the game by 5 (Team A scored once before the buzzer).

After the game, Coach A approached me - and thanked me for tossing A4 and his father (assistant) apparently he had had probs with this guy all year - but since he was the father of the star player had problems dealing with him. He was sorry that they lost, but hoped that it taught A4 a lesson. :)

1 - The comparisons between Iraq today & 1930's Germany is startling, I'm disappointed you didn't take this into
account in your criticism of US policy towards Iraq.
Here's a tip: I suggest that if your degree is in Modern European history you might want to get a refund.

2. Kyoto is a red herring. No country ratified and
implemented Kyoto in its original form. Only recently, after many changes, is it just being accepted.

3. My mother was born in London in 1930 and due to her
father's Italian citizenship they were forced to leave
England & go to northern Italy from 1940 until 1946, during
the time of the Nazi occupation. As I already mentioned my
father served in WW2. I was born and raised in NYC and count
many jewish families as friends, I personally know people
with serial numbers tatooed on their arms. There is nothing
subjective in the first person accounts of European history told to me by any of the many people I know who
lived there during this period. I also know people who
sadly claim the atrocities of WW2 never happened (they
of course do not have first hand knowledge). Are you
saying they are not wrong, but simply "different"?

Finally, when you awake you'll learn that due to the pressure put on Iraq by the US the Iraqi government has
capitulated and announced they will finally allow
weapons inspectors in, per UN resolutions. Now, use your education and imagine how different modern European
history might have been if Neville Chamberlain would have
had the guts to "jump the gun" in 1936.

I love those calls.
 

I had one that was really easy but was precieved as the game decider.

It was the easiest charge of my life. One of the big centers (home team) had a little drive to the basket and tried to go thru the other big center who was just standing there. The ball went in and I had to waive off the basket. The home side first thought I a foul on the visiting team and you could see their side go crazy. They I waive off the basket and show a charge signal and the other side went crazy. If I did not realize how powerful that call was at that point of my career, I knew after that particular one. The home coach even came to me and said, "you blew that one." I just said to him "OK" and gave my table mechanics.

One of the most fun games of my career.

Peace

Oh please...history is never , never, never subjective... yours - or mine - interpretation of history may be different, but the facts don't change...

Since when??
 

Facts according to who? I bet if we all answered why the World Trade Center was bombed, I think we would come up with several answers. The only facts are when it happen and maybe how many people died. But why and who was responsible is up for debate. Everything after that is very subjective. I guess everything they taught you in History Class was always about facts? Don't complain when the next "made for TV" movie comes about some historical event.

Peace

WHY the World Trade Center destruction happened is open to interpretation...the FACT that it happened is not subjective...the FACT that we were asked to help in Vietnam (as was stated earlier and was one of the things which got this discussion started) is not subjective...WHY we agreed to get involved there or WHY we stayed so long is open to interpretation...the facts are the facts...

While history is fact (what happened, happened and you can't change it), the representation of those facts (the spin put on it) is ALWAYS subjective. Remember, history is written by the winners and criticized by the whinners.

Re: Since when??
 

On the contrary, facts are facts.

We may not know why (and we may disagree as to why we think) these attacks happened, but the true reason(s) cannot change post facto.

Similarly, 25 people may all see a bank robbery differently and may even testify to different points of views, but what actually happened is an unchangable fact.

The only truism about history is that some never learn from it and we end up repeating the mistakes from the past.

Last century we were dragged into 2 world conflicts when we decided it was no direct threat to us and it cost us many more lives on both sides.

Now we have some of these same countries and attitudes that cost us before....maybe it time we set the conditions instead of waiting for them to be set for us.