Can't comprehend this one
 

A up by two points, five seconds left, A1 shooting two foul shots. A1 misses first shot, and yells sh-- for the entire gym to hear because he is mad at himself.

No choice but to T, he misses the second shot, the other team hits both technical free throws. Team A goes on to lose in overtime.

Oh, did I mention- A1 has only one arm and has played an absolutely amazing game up until then.

Actually, There Is A Choice Here ???
 

Let the games begin.

huh?!?!

This is a tough one. in most cases i do not think that THIS specific word is all that bad. either way I would probably ask my assignor or local association how they would want THIS one handled. I personally would not call this (depends on the level of course - sportsmanship is a sliding scale to some degree and varies by age and level) and it is NOT automatic.

Double Negative Appropriate ???
 

Agree. But I also believe that it is NOT not automatic in some situations (crowd noise, level of game, previous language problems, volume, etc.).

Please Read Carefully Before Commenting ...
 

I think that you misread the original post. They would want this one handed.

If he yells that word "loud enough for the whole gym to hear," you T him up just for ignorance.

When the whole gym hears it it is an automatic WHACK at all levels (youth, jr. H.S., H.S., and college).

MTD, Sr.

touche

Mark, is this your personal feeling on the subject or is this the general consensus?

I would be greatly disappointed in any official who would have a problem in charging a player with a TF in this circumstance. This is even a TF in Special Olympics.

MTD, Sr.

OK, I see everyone's point about this word not being automatic, and I agree.

However, this is a church sponsored rec league- I really had no choice. The league specifically prohibits profanity in the league charter.

However, I think I would have called this in a HS game as well, based on volume and timing. It was just too loud and at that point in time every eye in the gym was on him.

"Double A (Beep Beep) M C O"
 

Now, with more information in hand, it's an automatic automatic.

in this situation automatic whack seems imminent.

Was wondering about if a kid were to go down with an injury (sprained ankle, broken finger) and cursed loudly in pain. Would the association/league expect you to T up that kid. That seems rough.

Actually happened in the same game. My partner is standing next to the downed player (sprained ankle) while I get the coach. Afterwards my partner tells me there may have been an F word heard only by him and a teammate of the downed player.

We didn't hear anything at all. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

OK... what if this player has turrets?:D

I'm Sure That You Mean Tourette's (Tourette Syndrome) ???
 

I'm certainly not going to T up that player. That gun really scares me. Let him swear all he wants to. In fact, if it will stop him from shooting me, I'll make some profanity suggestions that would make a sailor blush.

http://thm-a02.yimg.com/nimage/a94544818a29666c

He has a cannon for an arm.

Sorry... I had a spelling malfunction.

billy you are on a roll the last couple days.

MTD - consider yourself disappointed in me...'cause I'm not calling that in a HS and definitely not in a college game.

imho an official has to ask himself/herself this question: "who was the unsportsman-like conduct directed towards?" certainly not an official, or opposing player, or coach, or fan...therefore, i'm not calling that...

Had To Be There ...
 

High school game. I kind'a agree, but for me it would come down to just how loud it was, and just how loud the crowd was. Not so loud in a crowded, loud, gym. Pass. Really loud in a gym with a few quiet people. Technical.

Even in the first case, I wouldn't ignore it, but would say a few words to the player discouraging him from doing it again.

Replace the profanity with the player slamming the ball down in frustration, whiffing on the "catch" as the ball comes up off the ground and it ends up 15 feet above the floor..........


We're shooting fouls shots in each situation.

That very situation isn't an automatic for everyone. I remember there was a huge, long thread discussing this after the Kansas vs. Memphis National Championship game where they passed on a technical in a situation very similar to this.

Who is we? Do not speak for me on this one. :rolleyes:

Peace

really? we are? why do you say so?

We, as in the crew that I am working with that night.

I do not speak for anyone other than myself.

Just because they passed on it does not mean they were correct.

They got reamed for it.

How about throwing it against the wall?

How about booting it into the empty seats behind the basket?

How about throwing it aginst the backboard?


Where do you draw the line?

And that was Jeff's point.....

Every official draws their very own line. And every official has their own opinion as to whether unsporting conduct was involved.

Personally, if a player hollers an expletive after a missed FT that is loud enough to be heard in every corner of the gym, that's an automatic "T" to me.

Of course, it's always not a bad idea to have some kind of clue as to how your assignor/evaluator likes to see this kind of play called also...as well as how they want to handle the other examples listed above(within reason, of course. There aren't any absolutes when it comes to "T"s). Asking a few questions in a meeting at the start of the season might save you a few headaches down the line. Don't fight Head Office. :)

You draw the line based on the situation and what the player is upset about. Throwing the ball off the wall can be done in many ways and not be a problem. What if the player is throwing the ball off the wall so it will come back to them?

This is why I do not like these "automatics" when there are all kinds of situations that these would not apply or be appropriate. Learn to deal with players and coaches without always having to give a T. But most officials I see are only concerned with blowing the whistle instead of communicating.

Peace

You'll let a kid boot a ball into the seats without penalty?

Perhaps I just bet my partner $500 dollars that I could get a FT shooter to boot the ball into the stands, and then told the shooter that I would pay him $200 to do just that. :eek:

Now why would I penalize a kid who just made me $300? :D

Usually no.

But.....

I had a game once where a player with the ball got whacked pretty solidly in the nuts trying to get out of double-team. Not done deliberately, for sure imo, but still a solid shot..and a foul. The player kinda reflexively hoofed the ball away before sinking to the floor. And the ball did make the bleachers. Did I call a "T"? Nope. There was nowayinhell that particular gesture was unsporting in nature, again imo. And the opposing coach also asked me about it; he wanted the "T" of course. I just told him "Not in that situation. coach."

I know where you're coming from. Those acts certainly look bad..and unsporting as well. But I know where Jeff is coming from also. There might be mitigating circumstances and that's why it's tough to apply a one-size-fits-all rule.

Again, imo there aren't really that many absolutes when it comes to calling unsporting technical fouls. You have to judge each individual situation on it's own merits and then call what you feel fits that situation.

Do we WHACK automatically for each of Carlin's seven words? And, is it T for each instance or does one T covers all seven. Just wondering about combinations, sometimes they string the words together.

You're obviously just joking. He would have done it for $50.
:D

We've been very clearly instructed by the state that it doesn't matter whether it was directed at an official or not; profanity is a T. Is it automatic? No, but the situation presented in the OP would have been a no-brainer in a HS varsity game here.

The rules don't say unsporting conduct has to be "directed" anywhere.

again, I ask the question...."who was the unsportsman-like conduct directed toward?"...the ball? c'mon...

i'm not wacking a kid for that action on this one either.

Not automatic, had a coach use the word "bullsh1t" and not get T'd by me; he was asking if a player was allowed to say it. "Is he allowed to say "bullsh1t like that?" He was referring to a hot head on the other team, but I hadn't heard the player say it, and told the coach as much.

So you are going to let him act in an unsporting manner because he made a bad pass, or his teammate fumbled a good pass? :confused:


Looks like it's time to re-visit the mission of Interscholastic sports.... you know the part about this being an extension of the classroom ??

It would depend on why a kid booted the ball into the stands. It would depend who they are mad at. It would depend on where the ball went. A lot of things depends and that is the way I am going to call it. Now I love the hypothetical, because I have never seen a kid boot the ball into the stands. I have seen kids bounce the ball several times and it was not always about us or even a call. It was about a certain level of frustration at themselves and we moved on. Sorry, everything is not black and white and no for me this is not automatic. You can call what you feel, but I am not going to call that for the reason you stated.

Peace

A1 has just committed a silly turnover when no one was w/in 10ft of him in the last minute of a 72-72 game...he picks up the ball and violently throws it against the head of a player...A1 (himself!).

Are you going to call a T?
Is that unsportsman-like conduct?
Does it matter how far the ball bounced afterwards (5ft, 15ft, etc)?
Surely a player can't just hit himself in the head with the ball, can he?.....
Everyone saw it...

To me, the sole issue is was it directed at anyone else (player, coach, official, etc). This is a judgement call - we're paid to use our judgement in officiating a game...

Having said all of that...if the state tells you to penalize the action, you penalize the action - not just because you want to receive coveted state tournament assignments, but because that's what you were told to do by the "powers that be".

I marked the irrelevant portion of your post. The state instruction on this was very specifically regarding the use of profanity; stating that coaches are not to be allowed to use it towards their players and players are not to be allowed to utter the words in frustration either. And the state has rule backing, whereas your criterion is not found in the book.

Your hypothetical is rediculous, but I'll play along. Did he go get the ball afterwards? I would call this the same as if the player, after getting called for traveling, tossed the ball away to no one in particular. I'll give him a chance to go get it, and ring him up if he doesn't (delaying the game).

I do not think his hypothetical is ridiculous at all. I think it is very valid to those that have not been given specific instructions. Jeff and I work in the same state and we have not been given any such instructions. So if we call a T for this, we would likely have to justify it by someone other than the state. If it is addressed in order to work for someone, I am sure both of us would follow that standard. But the current standard is what we think and not to be overly technical with an action that is not explicit in the rules.

Peace

There is no hypothetical here.

A kid on on the receiving end of a beautiful pass from a teammate. He fumbles it out of bounds. He retrieves it and out of frustration because he knows he made a mistake, he intentionally boots the ball into the empty stands behind the basket.

whack......each and every time.

Jeff, the hypothetical is rediculous for two reasons:
1. It would never happen. Have you ever had a player throw the ball of his own head out of frustration? I've never seen it, but I have had quite a few players utter profanities out of personal frustration.
2. The direction from my state has nothing to do with bouncing the ball out of frustation, it was all about profanity, so it's not even applicable to my point.

Does the object of the player's frustation have any bearing on how we call unsporting T's? Yes, absolutely. Does that exempt a player from penalty if he's directing it towards himself? No.

And for the record, I'm not advocating you (or jeffpea) go against the prevailing norms in your areas. If a player shouting "sh1t" loud enough for the maintenance crew to hear it in the basement isn't all-but-automatic for you, so be it.

Well if it happens you let us all know, because I have never seen that ever happen. Never heard it happen. Not even close.

Peace

I have seen a kid in a football game hit himself in the head with a helmet because he was being called ethnic names (which were not heard). Touching the ball with someone's own head is not completely out of the question. From my point of view it would depend.


I have no problem with that as long as everyone agrees what is profanity. ;)

There are words here that some would be offended by and cannot be used and others would not be offended. So what is profanity and what is considered OK? Some would say "Oh MY GOD!!!" is inappropriate (and yes someone has wanted me to give a T for this BTW) because it uses the Lord's name in vain. Now I am a Christian and I believe in living like a Christian as much as possible, but I am not giving a T for a religious belief, but there are those that think this is out of bounds.

I did not tell you that what you were told was wrong. Just understand that everyone has not been given those directives and everyone does not fell without such directives those are things we need to penalize. If my state or assignors take a different stance I will take it. Just like they have about uniforms in my area and if you want to work post season, follow the expectations or sit at home. ;)

Peace

I have never seen it either, but I guarantee you, it's going to be penalized if I do. I won't need to determine if the kid was upset about a bad Math quiz, a bad apple he had for lunch, or a bad pass from his teammate.


My first example in this thread of a player slamming the ball to the ground and having it launch 15 feet into the air after he failed to catch it has happened to me twice in my career. Both times the player was upset at himself.

We shot 2 both times. ;)

P.S. -- Both players and I still chuckle about it to this day.

OK, but this is your standard, not everyone else's standard. What you do in your game is your business. ;)

Well in the NCAA Championship a kid did the same thing and there was no penalty. And the NCAA basically said they were fine with the way the officials handled the situation. It is obvious that not everyone necessarily agrees with you.

Peace

Agreed, but it's still different, I see that similar to a kid butting his head against the wall in frustration. Now, if he does some sort of soccer header on the ball and launches it out of frustration, he'll get a chance to retrieve it. As far as I'm concerned, he may as well have throwin it; it'll get treated the same.

For me, for lack of an authoritative definition, I'm going with the ones that are not allowed to be broadcast over the radio. Those words will get less tolerance and have fewer contexts in which they will not draw a T. Other words (damn, OMG, JC, etc.) will depend largely on context. I'll treat them all similar to if the player had said, "you're kidding me."

And here we are, both of us saying we didn't say the other was wrong. :D

I understand and agree with what you're saying; I was just responding to what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was an unfair insinuation that those who would call the T in the OP were either thin-skinned or "overly officious."

1) I do not form an opinion based on whether or not everybody agress with me.

2) The NCAA Championship has nothing to do with this. If we patterned ourselves after those guys, we'd allow drop step with the left foot, followed by the pivot foot being lifted and re-set before the ball is passed or shot. ;)

That is why I do not use that as a standard. "You're kidding me" would not likely even get a response from me. If it did a T probably would not be the response. And if the standard is TV, they have blocked out a lot of words I would never find offensive or even a T would be warranted.

I understand. And this just illustrates why I do not like "automatics." I just want something more meaty to have than what a player says under their breathe or something more than losing control of the ball while being personally frustrated.

Peace

I did not ask you to. I just pointed out that there are those that are not giving a T for the action "automatically."

It does in this way; it is an example of officials not giving a T where there are not many public situations as examples.

And if high school officials were the pattern, then we everyone should call travels for the ball not being in possession of a ball handler and we would have high dribbles as palming violations. Careful what you wish for. ;)

Peace

Huh ???:confused:

As an aside, I've found it funny that a local station has edited, for example, the word "a$$" out of one song in particular and yet their DJs don't hesitate to use it on air.

I have a good feel for the standards in this area, and apply them similarly on the court; and in all honesty would only apply the "profanity" rule to a small handful of words.

I'm with you, and your exampe of the player getting hit in the jewels perfectly illustrates my feelings on why I don't like the term "automatic." In order to make something sufficiently automatic, you have to make it so specific it's meaningless.

He's talking about all the officials who call travels when a play looks funny; even though the player never had control of the ball.

Yep...

That drives officials up a wall.

It's not illegal just becasue it's ugly.

ok....so you don't like my hypothetical...instead of hitting himself with the ball, what if he slapped himself in the face/head area? if striking someone in a combative manner is deemed to be a flagrant foul/flagrant technical, should you call that when a player does it to himself?

as for following the directives of your state association, I'm all for it. in Illinois, a team made it to the semi-finals of the state tournament last year while wearing illegal uniforms (they were only penalized during the semi-finals on the final weekend). none of the nine officials that did not penalize them during their prior games received assignments in this years tournament (hmmm, I wonder why?:)).

the state association made illegal uniforms a big emphasis this year and required officials to penalize teams and notify the state about schools w/ illegal uniforms....to date 96 boys teams have been deemed to wear illegal uniforms (they have been given a written waiver that they are required to show officials prior to tip-off or face an automatic T). some officials don't want to be the "fashion police" and assess the T, but I say when you're told to do so by the state association - you either do it (and get assignments) or don't (and face the consequences).

You were right several posts ago when you stated:

1. the issue is whether the display is directed at the player himself or toward the calling (or non-calling) official, and
2. that #1 is a judgment call.

And IMO you should have stopped there. The problem with the rest of what you've said is that it's often unclear what a player is doing by spiking the ball, etc. You seem to want to give the benefit of this doubt to the player. I disagree.

I think it's unsporting to act in such a way that a neutral observer can't tell what you're expressing. Errors are part of any game, and good sports shrug and try harder next time.

So I choose not to extend the benefit of the doubt to players in that way. IMO overt displays of frustration are not part of the game: I'll warn and then whack (and, if it's obvious to me that the display is about me and not the error, I'll skip the warning).

Yes, and high school officials call more phantom travels than any other level. We can always talk about what should have been called, but to call things that clearly were not violations is not right either and worse.

Peace

Apples and skateboards, IMO.
Let me change it slightly so it's more applicable.

A1 throws a pass to a wide open A2 in transition. A2 has a layup pending, all he has to do is catch the ball. Instead, the pass goes right through his legs and out of bounds. A1 is furious, and lights into A2 with a profanity laced tirade.

'You dumb-a$$! I've been putting up with your bullsh!t all year, and I'm f$cking sick of it!"

You going to let it go?

What about a fight between teammates?

The reason your example above doesn't work is because there's no rule against a player slapping himself. If you can show me in the rules where it says unsporting conduct must be directed towards an official or opponent in order to be penalized, I'll concede they're similar.

One might consider those game interrupters. :)