HS Boys Shot Clock Question
 

HS boys shot clock (35 seconds). If one of the crew has definite knowledge of time left on the clock after a shot clock violation should time be put back on the clock? Situation that happened was the time on the game clock was 36.5 when the shot clock started. When the shot clock horn went off and the official blew his whistle (violation), then the game clock horn sounded. There was the difference of 1.5 seconds. The crew had different opinions, one thought that the quarter was over, one thought time should be put back on the clock and the other stayed neutral. What should have been the correct ruling?

If the violation did not involve a try then I would put 1.5 back on the clock.

Agreed.

And, if the try was in the air when the shot-clock horn went off, then the violation isn't until the try ends -- so the time will be less than 1.5 seconds.

NCAA rule = whatever time is left on the clock once the try fails to contact the ring and an official sounds his whistle.

NBA rule = 1.5 seconds on the game clock and ball awarded to opposing team.

HS rule = check with your state association.

CA High School rules...

If there was no try involved, put the time back on the clock...
If a try is involved then you need to determin how much time based on when you think the try ended.

Past this point nothing that you wrote can be substantiated by this official document: http://www.norcalofficials.org/pdf/CIF.pdf

In fact, this sentence can even be read to advocate the reverse of your stated position when there is no try for goal invovled: "This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

Until I am shown something definitive, I would stick with the NFHS rule that the game clock stops on the whistle.

The problem is that the people who write these rules addenda aren't thinking about NFHS rules and definitions when they write them. We see it all the time with "running clock" rules, "no zone defense rules" and other rules that are usually for lower level games. But even these shot clock rules for HS varsity have holes in them that just don't make sense.

The appropriate thing to do is get the actual ruling from a state/local interpreter and go by that. We can guess what someone meant when they wrote the addendum, but it's better to get something official.

Well, sure... That's true... A shot goes up with one second on the clock, before it hits the rim the horn goes off, ball hits rim defense gains possesion. Why would I blow my whistle to stop play?

Nope. Try released with one second remaining on the shot clock and 3 seconds on the game clock, misses the ring and the horn sounds, but the officials fail to blow a whistle until the game clock expires.

That sentence says that the quarter is over as the shot clock horn doesn't stop play. It is no different than the officials failing to call a traveling violation with two seconds left. You can't go back and fix it.

Did you notice who wrote that document? The guy is the state rules interpreter.

However in the OP it was stated that a violation was called so they would have definite knowledge of how much time should be remaining. Put time back on the clock. Unless you want your playoff run to end right there that is.

So if the officials blow the whistle with 1.2 seconds left on the game clock, but the shot clock expired with 2.7 seconds left, you would reset the game clock to 2.7? Is that the position you are advocating?

Not neccesisarily, but in the OP time expired and the official knew that there should still be time on the clock. In fact he knew exactly how much should be put on teh clock. So do it. In fact, even in your situation, it would probably be easier to support an official who put the time back on the clock as opposed to one who didn't. Early in the game you probably don't, if the outcome is decided you probably don't, but if the game is tight, you probably reset the game clock. And your assignor would be able to back that up.

Also, depends on the status of the ball at the time the SC horn sounds.

I'm confused...Are people saying that if the violation occurred when the shot clock horn sounded (ie there wasn't a shot attempt just before the shot clock expired) and the officials recognized the violation (blew the whistle and patted his/her head) and there was definite knowledge of how much time was on the game clock when the violation occurred that we shouldn't put the 1.5 seconds back on the game clock?

Just looking for clarification.

If the horn sounds when the ball is in a player's hand (or otherwise not in flight on a try), then put the definite knowledge time back on the clock -- 1.5 seconds, in this instance.

I think the discussion is what to do if the ball is in flight on a try. Do we reset to "when the try ends" or "when the whistle blows" (in the specific CA rules example cited -- it's clear what to do in NCAA).

The problem is that there is a difference between what you have written and "there is definite knowledge of how much time was on the game clock when an official sounded the whistle."

I know of no rule at the high school level stating to stop the game clock when the shot clock horn sounds, even if it signals an immediate violation because there isn't a try for goal in flight. Even at the NCAA level the rules for the game clock must be followed. Therefore, the NCAA wrote a play ruling for shot clock violations.

A.R. 33. There are 37 seconds (men) or 32 seconds (women) on the
game clock and 35 seconds (men) or 30 seconds (women) on
the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for
a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn
sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials
call a shot-clock violation. At the same time as the official’s
whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the period has
ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game
clock?
RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the
shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized
by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation
stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by
the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule
2-10.14). The period ended with the violation. However, in games
with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and an official courtside
television monitor, when in the judgment of the official time has
elapsed from when he or she signaled for the clock to be stopped to
when the game clock stopped, the monitor may be used to determine
the correct time to be put back on the game clock. In games without
an official courtside television monitor, the official is required to have
definite information relative to the time involved to correct the time
elapsed.
(Rule 2-13.2.c.3, 4-62, 2-10.14, 2-11.9, 5-10.1.c, 5-10.2.a, and
6-5.1.d)

Unfortunately, our friend w_sohl believes that CA has a different ruling. He posted: "CA High School rules...

If there was no try involved, put the time back on the clock...
If a try is involved then you need to determin how much time based on when you think the try ended."

I'm saying that he is incorrect. Not because what he advocates doesn't make sense, but because it doesn't mesh with the WRITTEN RULES.

Therefore, the officials need to know what the clock was WHEN THE WHISTLE BLEW, not when the try failed to strike the ring or when the shot clock horn sounded and there wasn't a try in flight.

Even at the NCAA level, the officials don't reset the clock to the difference between the game clock and the shot clock. However, that is what is done in the NBA, but the NBA rules specify that. I am challenging w_sohl to post a definitive ruling from CA stating to reset the game clock to something other than when the whistle blew. I don't believe that such exists, and without it the officials have to fall back on the NFHS timing rules.

Here's an NCAA ruling that allows the officials to correct the game clock when the shot clock operator errs, and even states to cancel the common foul which occurred following the error. However, it has nothing to do with the shot clock horn sounding or a whistle blowing because neither of those things happened due to the error of the shot clock operator.
It does tell us that the ball became dead when the shot clock violation should have occurred, even though none of the officials recognized it or stopped play with a whistle. That's instructive.


A.R. 138. The time on the game clock is 15:30 and the shot clock reads
0:30 for men and 0:25 for women. A1 shoots the ball with five
seconds on the shot clock and does not hit the ring or flange.
The shot-clock operator, by mistake, resets the shot clock. No
one notices the mistake by the shot-clock operator at this time.
The game clock gets to 14:55 for men and 15:00 for women
and B2 commits a foul against A2. Now the officials get together
and realize the shot-clock operator’s mistake

RULING: When the officials have definite information relative to the
shot-clock operator’s mistake, it is permissible to rectify that mistake.
In this case, since the officials have definite information relative to
the time involved, they shall put five seconds back on the game clock,
cancel the foul and award the ball to Team B at a designated spot
nearest to where the ball became dead for the shot-clock violation.
(Rule 5-11.4)

OK, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. And that possibly could have bben because I didn't word it properly.

No shot, put 1.5 back on the clock.

With a shot attempted that doesn't end till after the SC horn sounds, you are going to have to use some judgement. You aren't going to put 1.5 back on the clock. You are only going to put what you have definite knowledge of back on. If you or your partners didn't look at the clock when you blew your whistle, then period is over. If you or they did, then you'll have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock.

I agree with the part in blue.
I still don't know of any rules support, even from the state of CA, for what is in red.

My take is that if there is no shot and the horn sounds at 1.5, but the whistle doesn't sound to recognize that violation until 1.1, then by rule you have to leave 1.1 on the game clock. I know of nothing stating that this situation is different from a traveling violation. You don't go with the time that the violation occurred, you go with the time when the whistle sounded.

That seems to be where you and I differ. Now if you can prove otherwise, that's great and I will have learned something.

Thanks Nevada. At first I thought you weren't making any sense, but reading through everything, I believe that what you are saying is correct. Since my guess is that each state that utilizes a shot clock (or at least my state) wants the officials to be able to fix the clock in situations not involving a try (as NCAA advocates), then this will be one of the things I get clarification on when next season comes around from my local interpreter.

I would agree with you early in the game or early in a quarter. However if we are under a min in a tight ball game we have definate knowledge of how much time should be left on the game clock. I feel that if we are doing what we are supposed to do we have to put the 1.5 back on the clock. I would think you would get support from your assignor adn your state rules interp. I see where you are coming from Nevada, but I just keep getting stuck on the definate knowledge issue.

By rule (which is what we are discussing), why is the amount of time left in the game relevant?

By rule it isn't. However you aren't going to be resetting the clock every single time there is a violation. Late in the game it is more noticable to all parties involved if the game is tight so that is where the difference happens.