established legal guard position but too close to an opponent without the ball?
 

Hi guys,

this question came up in my last game.

A1 is running fast to catch a long pass coming from behind him.

As he looks over his shoulders and just before catching the pass B1 stands in his path and very close to him, say 30inches away.

A1 cannot see B1 as he is looking back now.

A1 finally catches the pass and as he turns to face forward he runs into B1 who was standing in his path. Contact occurs in the torso.

Please guys what is your call

Many thanks

chris

I don't have my books on me, but I think there is a time/distance requirement here...two strides maybe?

Help anyone?

From the sounds of your play, it seems like a player control (offensive foul). Once A1 catches the pass, time and distance become irrelevant. If, however, A1 crashes into B1 before catching the ball, then time and distance matter and A1 must be given one or two steps from the time B1 establishes position.

The question is, essentially, is this a screening play or a guarding play?
The answer is determined by whether A1 has the ball when contact is made.

OP specified that A1 caught the ball prior to contact, ergo PC foul as no time or distance is required (neither is LGP assuming B1 was stationary).
Hope noone got hurt on the play!

Yep, and while LGP may be irrelevant, it was gained (assuming B1 is facing A1), so certain movements would be allowed here (jumping vertically, for example).

Many thanks for your replies guys.

Couldn't we consider the fact that B1 didn't respect elements of time and distance when establishing LGP so actually what we have here is an illegal guard position?

Why? What did Herman ever do to you?

http://www.parsec-santa.com/celebrit...PeterNoone.jpg

Nope, because once A1 catches the ball, time and distance don't matter.

Now, if B1 never faced A1, you could make the argument that he needs to meet the screening requirements for time and distance.

christianH, just a quick question - what rule set is this? NFHS, NCAA, or FIBA?

The reason I ask is the answers being supplied are based on NFHS and NCAA rules, and there is a chance FIBA might be different.

Thanks, M&M, I kept forgetting to add that caveat. I have to assume he's officiating FIBA rules based on his signature, I just forgot to note that. You're my hero.

Time and distance do not apply to a player with the ball as well in FIBA.

33.4 Guarding a player who controls the ball
When guarding a player who controls (is holding or dribbling) the ball, the elements of time and distance do not apply. The player with the ball must expect to be guarded and must be prepared to stop or change his direction whenever an opponent takes an initial legal guarding position in front of him, even if this is done within a fraction of a second.

Well, there you go. Thanks APG.

It was nice to be someone's hero, even if it was only for a short moment. :D

But it was a shining moment, my friend.

Thanks guys

yes I am under FIBA.

I ref in local league in the countryside of England.

England is a country near Wales.

A1 apparently had a mild injury in his nose and unfortunately we cannot do anything about it under either FIBA or NCAA rules to prevent this kind of accidents

Tell A1 to look where he's going.
Tell A2 not to throw the pass into traffic like that.
Tell A3, A4, and A5 to call out the defender to A1. "LOOK OUT!"

It's no more dangerous than a blind screen that doesn't get called out by teammates of the defender.

Thanks Snaqwells

that is exactly what I will say if the same situation happens again.

Chris,

I know I can't be the only curious one: If I may ask, what is your native language? (And I ask partly because your English is very, very good -- I believe I and others in the past have said you don't need that disclaimer on your signature. But also because now you say you're officiating in England. ?!)

Good questions, by the way. Keep them coming.

I was traveling in Wales once. I met an old man and, being interested in Celtic languages, I asked him about Welsh.

"Does Welsh have a word like the Spanish mañana: you know, relax, do it tomorrow, put everything off, etc.?"

He replied, "Ay, we have such a word, but nothing quite so urgent."

Now you're messing with my heritage. One of these days....

Go back to scaring Rec ball coaches, you old Hermit!!!

Not messing at all. It's true, it's true... plus, I'm mostly Celt myself!

One more thing....
 

From the original question....

It also depends upon how he catches the ball and when possesion occurs. If the offensive player leaps to make the catch then that will factor into the time and distance equation upon the landing. The leap without the ball will mean that his landing will be treated as though he is without the ball but once he lands with possesion then time and distance are not a factor. So the offensive player could still commit a PC foul on a leaping catch but the defensive player needs to have been there ealier than if the player caught the ball without leaping. I believe it could be looked upon like an airborne shooter but I do not think there is a rules reference that backs me up on this.

Many officials call a travel when there is a leap, landing, collision. Sometimes correctly, somtimes a cop out.

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think it's wrong. At best, it's confusing.

1. A1 throws a pass, leading A2 heading down the court.
2. B1 sees where the pass is going and establishes legal position facing A2.
3. A2 leaps, immediately after B1 gains position.
4. Airborne A2 catches the ball and crashes into B1.

Time and distance do not matter, period. All that matters is whether B1 was in position before A2 left the floor.

CHARGE!!!

MTD, Sr.