Extra Period or Not??

tschriver · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 05, 2002, 06:48pm

Here's one that actually happened:

Near the end of a game, the visitng team sinks a two point shot from just over the three point line, near the trail official. Trail properly does not signal three point attempt or successful three point shot. His lead, however, does signal successful three point attempt and does so without knowledge of the Trail. The scorer assigns three points for the bucket which results in the score being tied.

Home team inbounds the ball, and the horn sounds to end the game. Score is tied, however the coach for the home team addresses the Referee (who was trail on the previous play) and protests the score. The Referee verfies the value of final basket with the scorer and immediatley corrects the error.

Now for the question: Should overtime be played with the score corrected to indicate the 1 point differencial or is the game over?

If your interested, I was the Referee in this game and called the game over - no overtime was played. I'm lucky the call was to the home team's advantage or it would have been total chaos.

I am interested to know if you feel the call was correct?

Marty Rogers · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 05, 2002, 07:07pm

You handled this situation correctly by rule.
Now for a little "post game chat" with your partner about coverage responsibilities.
By the way, how could you have possibly considered an overtime period with the score not tied?

tschriver · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 05, 2002, 07:21pm

On my way home after the game, my thoughts were as follows: the game was tied according to the score book and the clock when the horn sounded to end the fourth quarter. Maybe we were obligated to play OT under these circumstances after we corrected the score?

I was left with some doubt as to whether or not I did the right thing.

Thanks for your input.

PAULK1 · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 05, 2002, 07:26pm

You made the correction before the ball became live for the OT period. You were correct to not play an OT. If the correction had been made after the ball became live to start the OT you would have had to play the OT with the corrected score.

rockyroad · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 05, 2002, 07:30pm

Just remember that scoring errors do not have the same time requirement as a correctable error...scoring errors or mistakes can be corrected at anytime...you corrected it when it was brought to your attention...you handled it exactly right! Nice job...and yes, you should have had a little post-game chat with your partner!!

devdog69 · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 05, 2002, 08:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Just remember that scoring errors do not have the same time requirement as a correctable error...scoring errors or mistakes can be corrected at anytime...you corrected it when it was brought to your attention...you handled it exactly right! Nice job...and yes, you should have had a little post-game chat with your partner!!

Rockyroad has provided the pertinent information, that the scoring errors can be corrected anytime.

Just to put another question to you. How did you not notice the error when it occurred? Maybe you need to work on your game awareness, i.e., score; time; possession. These are things that we never should stop working and improving on. If you don't work to train yourself you won't improve, just a thought.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 05, 2002, 10:08pm

This is not a scorer's error. This is a correctable error situation and you handled it correctly.

However, let's not call them scoring errors, guys. That's can create some problems. Bookkeeping mistakes can be corrected at anytime but errorneously counting or canceling a score is a correctable error.

For example, if an official indicates a three and the scorer records it as a 3, that is not a bookkeeping mistake. If you erroneously count a 2 as a 3, that's a correctable error and 2-10-1e applies. If you indicate a 3 and the scorer counts it as a 2, that's a bookkeeping mistake.

See 2.10.1 SITUATION F.

crew · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 02:19am

bballref,
i would have done the same in your situation.

theboys · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 07:07am

Check page 38, section 5.7.1 of the 2002 Case book. It gives an explanation for a similar situation.

We had a similar issue in a 7th grade playoff game. Early in the game the opponents made a shot just inside the 3-point line. The official correctly signaled a 2, but the scorer and scoreboard operator incorrectly counted the shot as a 3 (both supplied by us, the home team!). Later in the game the guy next to me says the score is wrong, but doesn't make a big deal out of it. We lose in OT.

I went back and checked the film, and found the place where the error occurred. Our coach talks to the opposing coach the next day, and mentions the error. The opposing coach says, "yeah, I knew they screwed up all along". Our coach, dumbfounded, asks the guy if the knowledge kept him awake at night.

Its a great moral debate - how far do you go to be honest?

rockyroad · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 09:29am

That would be called integrity...if winning anything (let alone a 7th grade game for cryin out loud) is more important to that coach than his integrity - then I shudder to think what he is teaching his players and his students in class...and thanks for catching my mistake there Tony!!

Kelvin green · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 09:49am

My two cents worth...

How does a lead signal 3 without the knowledge as a trail?
I am not criticizing you but if you are at trail and lead went up with a three you probably would have noticed it...( Unless you turned and ran to other end with back completely turned to players)

If it is near end of game you should have known what the score and timer were on the board and would have noticed they picked up three instead of two...

This is where I like the signal (yes unauthorized) to point at line/signal two. If I see my partner go up with three I reinforce the two as I am running back.

This is where solid game management/clock/scoreboard management come into play. t is a good lesson for all of us to remember that we need to watch and know everything that is going on out on the floor

Andy · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 11:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green

This is where I like the signal (yes unauthorized) to point at line/signal two. If I see my partner go up with three I reinforce the two as I am running back.

Good call, Kelvin. The "unauthorized" signal helps communication in this sitch.

Something that no one has brought up yet; how do you all feel about blowing the whistle, stopping the game, and getting the score corrected assuming you notice the discrepancy right away? This piece of advice was given to me several years ago by an old vet that I respected.

ChuckElias · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy
Good call, Kelvin. The "unauthorized" signal helps communication in this sitch.

Although pointing down to the floor, or putting down two fingers, to indicate a two-point attempt is not authorized, I have been told to use it by assignors at the HS, college, and pro levels. Personally, I feel that it lets the table, or the coach, or my partner(s) know that I definitely saw it. That way, when the touchdown signal does not go up, the coach isn't screaming for a 3.

Quote:

Something that no one has brought up yet; how do you all feel about blowing the whistle, stopping the game, and getting the score corrected assuming you notice the discrepancy right away?

This is part of my pre-game. I tell my partner that if we have to correct an OOB situation, or if something really unusual happens, we will get together and talk about what happened. However, if I signal a successful 3, and you know with 100% certainty that it was a 2, then you blow the whistle immediately, signal and state to the table "Two point shot!", and then put the ball back in and let's go. No discussion.

I think that's an efficient and effective way of dealing with that. I've only had to do it once, myself, fortunately.

Chuck

bigwhistle · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green

If it is near end of game you should have known what the score and timer were on the board and would have noticed they picked up three instead of two...

Kelvin,

I totally agree with what you are saying, but if you are in a building with only the gondola type scoreboard above midcourt, it is virtually impossible to check it if there is any pressure at all on the play immediately following the shot. I have no idea if that is the case in this game or not.

Camron Rust · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 06, 2002, 06:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green
My two cents worth...

How does a lead signal 3 without the knowledge as a trail?
I am not criticizing you but if you are at trail and lead went up with a three you probably would have noticed it...( Unless you turned and ran to other end with back completely turned to players)

I disagree. With the shot being clearly in the trails area as it was (and nowhere near the leads area). I would never expect the lead to signal the shot and wouldn't look for it. This was mostly a case of someone calling way out of their primary.