shooter shoots at wrong basket
 

5th/6th grader tourney. A has ball under basket they are not trying for. A1 inbounds ball to A2 and A2 shoots at that (the wrong) basket.

Question was asked... can A now run the baseline since it was a made basket?

yes

That's what I thought. Coach who's team made the shot in the wrong basket said that they shouldn't be allowed to and I told him that they are because it is a made basket, clock is still running, regardless of who took the shot. This was a tough thing for the scorekeeper who was a high-schooler volunteering for that tournament. Told her to count the basket, and put in a note that it was A2 who made the basket for team B.

You could probably guess this was a close game where the other team has used the baseline several times up until this point. It was also funny to see that the fans didn't understand that after a made basket someone else can run out of bounds to receive a pass and then take the throw-in. They were yelling like crazy!

Not quite right. Goal is credited to team B but not to any player. NFHS rule 5-2-3. case book play 5.2.3 is the exact play.

I'm confused here. Let me spell it out for me:
1. A2 takes a backcourt inbounds pass and causes the ball to go through B's basket.
2. Officials correctly count the points to B.
3. A proceeds with an end-line throw-in following B's basket.
4. (this is where I'm confused) A's coach insisted HIS team shouldn't be allowed to use the end-line?

Sorry, I got confused myself haha. I need to slow down a bit when I type.

It was the opposing team who's coach was asking about the endline. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

The part I find funny is that you, an official that reached his varsity "manhood" a whole month ago, and have felt compelled to offer "constructive criticism" to a "new, but arrogant official" a few short days ago, had to come here to ask about this rule yourself.

It has nothing to do with whether the clock is running or not. Rule 7-5-7 states "...A throw-in from anywhere along the end line after a goal...the team not credited with the score shall make a throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made...."

1) QED!!!
2) Seems even this level of ball represents quite a challenge:rolleyes:
3) baseline≠endline, for the umpteenth time

So Many Different Levels ...
 

Is the word umpteenth derived from umpire, as in baseball umpire, as in real baselines? Is that why you chose that particular word?

It's called "making sure". I knew the rule, just wanted to make sure I knew it correctly.

What if the opposing team fouls a player shooting at the wrong basket?
Would this be a shooting foul?
Who would shoot the free throws?
I almost saw this happen in my daughters 5th grade game a few weeks ago, but the ref let them play on.

You should reconsider both your uses of the word "shooting" in this "wrong basket" context. This action does not qualify as a shot. Officials should judge any contact as if the player were making a pass and penalize accordingly.

Dude, it's time to step up your game. Anyone doing varsity games should have known this easily, without doubt.

You knew the rule? Does that include your crediting the goal in the wrong basket to A2, as you wrote above?

You need to learn all of the rule, not "some".

Hey, give the guy a break......

He just mastered that unsolicited criticism technique. What more can you ask for after 6 years?

Where exactly did I write that I "credited" A2 for the goal? I didn't. I told the scorekeeper to just make a note that it was A2 who scored the basket for the opposing team. That way, if there was a problem with the score and the scorekeeper needed to count the score, he/she would not miss those two points that was scored by the wrong team. That was a trick I used when I was scorekeeping, as it has happened to me several times. It doesn't say that this should be done in the rulebook, it's just a trick that I used so if I had to add up the score due to a discrepency and I would not miss those two points. I don't know what other scorekeepers do.

Actually it does say what to do in the rulebook.

Seems as though you would have a greater handle on the rules if you undertook to research these questions yourself as opposed to relying on this board to provide you answers. You do have a rules and case book, right?
This would save you the embarrassment of representing your faulty rules knowledge on this forum for all the world to see.
Is it soccer season yet??

You didn't even bother to read the rule and case book citation that I took the time to look up for you...and JAR took the time to re-post right above.....did you?

For any new official reading that wasn't sure, the basket gets credited to team B in a footnote on the scoresheet. Never to any player. Only been that way...oh....forever.

Lah me....

You did just fine. You told the score keeper to make a note. Exactly what should that note say? It should say that A2 put the ball in the wrong basket for team B. Exactly as you said.

"Told her to count the basket, and put in a note that it was A2 who made the basket for team B."

I don't think anyone else throught you were suggesting "crediting A2" with the score. :rolleyes:

It is obviously better to have more detail in any note on an unusual situation.

Well, he did say to credit A2 with the score, not Team A. This is incorrect procedure. I can't see why it might be a problem, but it isn't what is recommended. Maybe it shouldn't count toward A2's career point total.

No, he said to put a note indicating what happened; that's all he said. Frankly, I think too many assumed the worst without actually reading what he said.

I'm just trying to see how this differs from crediting A2 with the score. To me, a note saying A2 made the basket by definition "credits" A2 for the score. Isn't it recommended that the note only credits Team A for the score? Again, I can't see what makes any difference, but it is a valid point to argue that the OP did indeed incorrectly credit A2. If the note doesn't credit A2, what does constitute crediting A2 for the score?

Frankly, I read what he said and I didn't assume anything.

What he wrote was incorrect, rules-wise.

Field goals scored in the wrong basket get credited to the team, not a player. He credited A2 with the score, even though the score was in the wrong basket.

Players do not get mentioned in the footnote on the score sheet. It's that simple.

And to be quite honest, I could care less what representing does. I wanted to make sure everybody else knew the correct procedure by rule.

And to also be completely honest, I ain't about to to get into any stoopid, pointless argument with anybody over it either.

I agree. He made a minor mistake in how the score was footnoted, but he did not at any point say A2 should be CREDITED with the basket.

And I'm one of the regular critics of representing in the forum.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with adding extra information to the footnotes in this situation. That's all he did. He didn't say to "credit" anything to anyone.

I've shaken my head at my share of representing's posts, I just don't think this is one to jump on him over.

By all means, add the clarification that it doesn't get "credited" to any player, however.

Representing can attest to the fact I haven't been a big fan of his posts on this site, we'ev exchanged a few private emails about my thoughts on his status in the officiating world.

That said, I think this post has been a prime example of the "eating out young" post someone made a while back. The kid handled the situation and correctly and wanted to talk about it and some of our "brethren" attack him. What makes it even more ridiculous is that some among us are so eager to attack him and prove to the world their officiating superiority that you completely changed what representing said in the orginal post. He never once said he credited A2 with the score, only to make a note who scored the phantom points that would have shown up without being credited to any player on team B. It was only a clarification note, not crediting it to A2's stats.

Some of you just amaze me sometimes with trying to impress others with your vast knowledge of this game, all the while proclaiming how you just "want to make sure others know the correct procedure."

Good job this time representing, but I still hold to our previous conversations bro ;)

Great points, but to me, recording in a footnote that A2 (not Team A) scored the points is crediting A2 with the points. We aren't supposed to do that.

Maybe I'm mistaken (always a possibility), but I was under the impression that the player's stats were not recorded in the footnotes. It's not the same thing.

So you say that if it isn't reflected in A2's stats it isn't credited to A2? I disagree. If the footnote says A2 scored the points, A2 was credited with the points. The points are part of Team B's stats, Team A should be credited with those points (per a footnote), not A2.

Are A2's points tracked in the footnotes?

Surely not. But Team B is given points from somewhere, and the rule says they come from TEAM A, not PLAYER A2, and that is what gets recorded in the footnote.

Boy, we sure are getting into the weeds on this one. I personally don't care if the footnote reads A2 or Team A, as long as there is a footnote to account for the points when it's time to reconcile the score.

The rule doens't say what to put in the footnote:

A literal reading of this would tell me that the footnote is the place to say "who" made the error, if the statistician feels the need to do so. If it was credited, it would go somewhere else; you know, where the rest of A2's points are credited.

There ya go!

No it does not.

There is no mention of anything like that in either the rule or the case play.

The rule say ONLY that is is "not credited to a player, but is indicated in a footnote".

Crediting something to a player is putting it on that player's line in the book....their individual point section. Putting anything in a note is not crediting it to a player, it is just a note. The "not credited to a player" is there to address the myth of crediting the goal to the closest player of team to whom the points are awarded. They don't get the points by being nearby...only the team does.


The whole point of a footnote is to describe where those two extra points for B came from (since they don't appear by a B player's name). When someone looks back at the book later, they know what happened. What exactly should that footnote say? The book makes NO mention of what to include in the note....nothing. It should basically include enough info to clearly indicate where those 2 points came from. More detail is better then less. Noting that A2 is the one who threw the ball into B's basket is perfectly acceptable.

To argue that anything put in the note is wrong is completely made up.

I can see it this way, though you do indicate by your wording here (the rest of A2's points) that a footnote mentioning A2 does credit A2 with the points, it's just not crediting them in the same place in the scorebook. ;)

If anything, it's crediting A2 with making a boneheaded mistake.

thank you to all......representing, snaqwells, hartsy, jurassic referee....for giving me one hell of a headache (caused by simmering laughter followed by a violent slam of my had against the nearest wall)!

i was curious to see how long this discussion (which is a complete waste of time) would go (boy there's 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back...:rolleyes:)

can I make a suggestion to everyone who posts on this board? stop having to always be right.

you all are saying essentially the same thing and arguing over who is right and who is wrong because you have an insatiable desire to be right and prove others wrong....

while we officials strive to "always be right", please understand that is a goal that can NEVER be accomplished....

back to your regularly scheduled programming...:)

Where the heck is CHSEagle when you need him ? Be glad when the census is over !:rolleyes:

Feel free to stop reading my posts, you wouldn't be the first. How's the air up there?

Speak for yourself. ;)

What's The Alternative ???
 

No problem. From now on I will only post wrong answers to questions. In my case, that won't be too difficult to do.

Shooting at the wrong basket counts double for the team that scored, but then the player that scored in the wrong basket gets a two minute penalty and his team has to play four against five, unless he's physically restrained by the third base coach, in which case it's intentional grounding. How's that?

It's warrants a yellow card. Go sit in the penalty box.

Maybe we should incorporate some sort of penalty box mentality to basketball on unsporting Ts. On top of the current penalties, the offending team has to play short for 30 seconds.

The only problem with this idea is it won't affect some players. Someone like rockyroad or Chuck would be happy to only play short for 30 seconds...

Anyway, can you imagine the student at the clock who is texting their friends during the game trying to operate a second penalty clock? :eek:

There's No Need To Fear, chseagle Is Here ...
 

No problem for chseagle. He could do it blindfolded, with his hands tied behind his back. Wait a minute? Is this the S and M chat room?