Bobby Huggins Ejection
 

Anyone see it? Would love to know what the thought process was behind the ejection. I have always been taught that if you T a coach it should NOT appear as though you egged the coach on. Also, if you are going to throw a coach the person who gave them their first T shouldn't be the one who throws the coach

I didn't see the situation, but, theoretically - I've been taught the same protocol for TFs and ejections. Administer the T, then get the heck away from the bench/scorer's table area.

I saw it. I also don't know what was said and neither do you. So, claiming that Huggins was possibly egged-on is sheer conjecture on your part. You don't know what triggered either "T"..and neither do any of us. And if a coach wants to get thrown, it doesn't matter who throws him. You don't ignore crap to let a partner take care of bidness for you.

Huggins is one of the all-time greats when it comes to whining, moaning, b!tching and trying to intimidate officials. He has to be in the top 5 when it comes to scumbag coaches.

He got what he deserved.

I watched the ESPN highlights and they only showed the first T. Looked like Huggins said the wrong thing, the official walked away and called the T. After that all they showed was Huggins trying to get out of his huddle to go complain more and his assistants were restraining him. Evidently they didn't get the job done.

He got his second T while his assistants were restraining him. He likely said some magic words because the calling official gave them both in a short time span.

I don't think whacking a coach then walking away is letting your partner "take care of your bidness". Walking away often helps diffuse the situation at the very least. There's no reason to linger within earshot of the coach. That's almost baiting.

edit: maybe this isn't how officials are trained to handle out of control coaches in the college ranks, though.

And do you know exactly what was said by Huggins while the official was trying to walk away?

Please share with the rest of us.

No, I'm not approaching the original post from that angle. I'm more interested in how we, as officials under NFHS rules, should handle a situation with a coach that has been given a T.

To that end, I'm not interested in the other side of the conversation that revolves around the emotion/words allegedly used by Huggins.

You're taking a rule of thumb and turning it into a rule. Yeah, it's a good idea to call the T and move away, but I'm not going to the concession stand just so I can't hear the coach. And the first T is not a license to get stupid. Sometimes, the coaches just don't give you the option of doing everything the way it's recommended.

I wouldn't move away so I can't hear him either. It's a good idea to move away in an effort to alleviate the situation if at all possible, though. However, it's not foolproof. If ridiculous behavior continues on the part of the coach, the officiating crew can handle it accordingly. There are six eyes and ears on the court...subjectivity and backup by your partners makes any actions against the coach even more locktight and legit.

edit: Good point about "rule of thumb". I agree.

I saw the sequence. The official actually walked to the table before calling the first technical foul -- in other words, Huggins had already earned it, but the official was getting out of there before whistling and signaling it.

After that Huggins went crazy and had to be restrained and screaming over his assistants. If I was that calling official and a coach did that, I would simply call the second one and get it over with. Why bother with a charade of making someone else come in and deal with it -- he's yelling at me, I'm going to make the call if it needs to be made.

Go Google "Huggins ejection" if you want to see this story at least once every season....it's nothing new and isn't really even a big story.

and now it's time for Huggin's to attend his annual anger management seminar :D

If only he'd attend his retirement planning seminar....

You are wise beyond your years. There's nothing the matter with giving a coach the last word when you're walking away, but that doesn't mean that those "last words" are a completely free shot. There's a big difference between complaining and abuse.

What I'm not going to do is second-guess a very competent official, especially when I have no idea what was actually said. And especially when it involves a serial ref-baiter like Huggins.

These D1 guys get direction from the Big East office. They know what they have to eat and what they don't have to take. The sureasheck aren't going to toss any coach unless they can justify the heck out of it in their post-game report.

I thought both of them were justified.

And the thoughts that Huggins was set-up or baited, I do not agree with.

I think this is a great opinion. Sometimes a coach is coming after one official. It the coach says something that earns him or her a T x2, why not have the official give them both?

DLH17, may I ask how many Ts you give in a normal season? Your opinion about the situation would lead me to believe a coach can get away with quite a bit.

And if he was so what. The coach needs to know what not to do. Do you think coaches do not say things to us to see if we will pull the trigger? Of course they do. And if we pull the trigger they cry foul.

I heard a story the other day where a coach got T'd and then claimed to the assignor that he agreed with his T, but thought it was a little early. Coaches love to justify their behavior and blame those that take action when they cross the line knowingly.

Peace

That would be hard not to laugh at.

"So you're saying you know you crossed the line but you expected the official to let you go a little further?"

It's interesting you ask. I've probably issued a dozen or so techs over the past 5 years, so maybe two or three per. I've given two Ts this season that I can recall - one to a player and one to a coach. Different teams. Different games.

More to the essence of this thread, two years ago I whacked a 6th grade competitive league coach with two Ts back to back and sent him packing.

I have no problem utilizing that Tech Tool. But, in conversations with upper level peers and evaluators, the general message is "whack 'em and walk away (using professional, but stern body language).

Why does it matter? I'm sure the WVU fan website keeps track of that stuff.

May have been an alumus of UConn. :D

In NFHS, a coach earning a 'T' does not give him license to continue his unsporting behavior. Ideally we would like to get away from the coach ASAP, but that is not always possible. And even if we do attempt to 'get away' from the coach, they still may say something magical that earns them that 2nd 'T'.

Yep, and the general message is also if you have players on the floor you need to call a foul; but we all know players get on the floor all the time without a foul. Again, rules of thumb work great as long as the coaches play nice.

I agree.

Interestingly Jay Bilas was saying that the calling official was baiting Huggins by going to him during a timeout. If the official hadn't gone to talk with Huggins I'm sure Bilas would have gotten on him for not communicating enough.

Well come on now, a coach can't be responsible for his own actions. It is the official that has to have messed up. :rolleyes:

Some interesting comments from the coaches on why what happened, happened.....

(Warning - not for the faint of heart or for those with queasy stomachs)

West Virginia Mountaineers vs. Connecticut Huskies - Recap - February 22, 2010 - ESPN

Sean McDonough (the ESPN PBP guy) sort of called Bilas out for his constant blasting of the officiating... it's becoming a tired act from him (not that this is anything new from a TV analyst). I mean, you know it's bad when Bobby Knight is offering a more restrained commentary on officials than you are!

That's a new one on me. It's not a general rule of thumb I've ever discussed. Players can end up on the floor for many reasons unrelated to a foul.

It's particularly discussed with crashes. I've even had a partner in a JV game tell me that his evaluators told him he should have had a call on a particular play. He stuck around for the 1st half of the varsity game and watched them no-call the exact play.

At half time:
"So, what happened in that first play of the game?"

"The same damn thing that happened in your game."

That's a head-shaker....and really sucks for your partner that is making an obvious effort to improve.

You either work in the most courteous place in the world or you aren't handling your business. Now, this is just my opinion, but in the various places I've officiated coaches and players earn more than three Ts per year.

I have also heard a final four official say, "I can help someone stop calling Ts, but I can't get them to start." He went on to say something along the lines of officials have to have the courage to call a technical when it is warranted. BNR has worked for this official/assigner too.

It's a point of emphasis, for gosh sakes!!
 

Surprised that in all of the back and forth, no one has pointed out that behavior in the coaching box is a point of emphasis this year.

The best point I have read thus far is "we have no idea what Huggins said". One thing is certain: whatever he said, it was way over the line. Div 1 officials won't launch a coach in the last minute of a game he has obviously lost unless he really went too far.

That T wasn't for this game. That T was his way of trying to get into the heads of a crew he might see again in the tournament. For all intents and purposes, the game was already over when he got whacked.

Do we LIKE it when the official who gives the first T ends up giving the second? No. Is it a hard and fast rule that the same official can't give both? Of course not. You whack a coach. After you whack him, he launches into a tirade that begins with "you f'ing cheating mf'er". Of course you're going to get him again.

Hugs got what he deserved. And I'm a Mountaineer, by the way. ;)

This gives me an excuse to brag a little - I do have the luxury of working in an area whose officials are scheduled by longtime assignors that have had decades of experience both as officials and assignors. My primary assignor is heavy heavy heavy on pre-season, in-season and off-season communication with his officials about how to conduct themselves professionally on (and off) the court. I'm not sure if this is or isn't the case in other metro areas across the nation, but where I am located, it's all engrained in us from the moment we start our careers.

As a result, we as officials definitely know how and when to administer a technical foul. On the flip side, we also have area league organizers and coaches that know exactly what is expected of them and their players during the season because of the relationship with the assignors and his officials. League administrators often attend annual assignor's meetings to review any number of issues.

In saying all of that, it would be fair to say that I do work in a "courteous" area. I'll also say that when there has been poor behavior, it has been a little nasty. We def don't live in some type of utopian basketball world.

For me, part of the fun managing a game is to see how calmly and evenly tempered I can be in the heat of any moment....keeping the heart rate as low as possible. Making good decisions. Sometimes I suck. Most times, I succeed.

I could echo DLH's post, for the most part. The metro area I work in, I've been pleasantly surprised at the good behavior of the coaches at the high school level. Below that, my experience is limited to two games with three teams. 2 good, 1 not so much.

Were you at my game this weekend? :eek:

I rang up a coach for crossing the line and as I was reporting he just kept right at it and made it worse. I ended up ringing him up again and tossing him. He left me no choice as far as I was concerned.

Do I wish my partner would have stepped in? Sure. But he was inexperienced and it wasn't going to happen. Shrug.

Well I am glad I finally started a good thread. I will disagree that the first "T" was warranted even though I have no idea what was said. Judging by the reaction of Huggy Bear, I don't think he knew it was coming. He was heading to talk to his team when the official went and whacked him. Then 3 seconds later ran him.
It would have looked a WHOLE lot better had the official 1) Not been in the huddle with WVU 2) Not had the whistle in his mouth the whole time - it looked like a pacifier 3)If he was expaining something to Huggy and Huggy didn't like it, then walk away to your designated spot on the floor. That way if he continues his tirade everyone and their sister will know what was going on. Also, if he earned the "T" earlier in the conversation than why stand around? When the referee left the WVU huddle, he shook his head, you can't see Huggy say anything more, then he whacks him.
Warranted or not, very ugly

That's exactly how my Tx2 went down a couple years ago. Coach just...wouldn't....shut....up. He made a huge spectacle of himself in front of his kids and made it all about himself instead of the players. Easy decision for me. And, it felt gooooooood. :)

You disagree it was warranted, although you don't know what was said. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Are you serious? I'm with Mr MSN on this one.Irrelevant. All that matters is you don't know what was said.

Remind me that if we ever do a game together, I shouldn't turn my back on you. Ever.

Sad!

Look how do you expect me to type coherently and particiapte in a conference call. Geez.:D
Here is what I was trying to say:
The first one could possibly have been avoided had the official changed his location or behavior.
It did not appear to me that Huggy said anything after the official left the huddle and went to the give the "T". Was he getting a T for something he said right before he left the huddle or afterwards?
My main point is this: It looked bad for the official to be in that huddle having a conversation with a coach then non chalantly go over and "T" him. There were a lot of things I am sure the official would do differently. (Not sure about Huggy though, he'd probalby do the same) THere was a better way, IMO, to handle the whole situation.

Assuming Huggy said something when the official was in the huddle, should he have made a grand show of the T?

WHy do you say that? If we were actually working together and YOU were the official in the huddle I would have probably been nearby to show support. If you whacked him out of the huddle, I would have watched to see what his reaction was, and I would be the one who tossed him. We would also have gotten together and discussed the situation, said some moderately funny comments at the coaches expense, and then gone on. Of course, you might be right because if you actually TURNED your back on me and a player/coach/fan did something uncalled for I would be able to see it and help you out!! (Unless you were one of my middle school teachers, I SWEAR they had eyes in the back of their heads!)

He should have ended the conversation right there and then T'd him up.

Actually, the next words out of the varsity official's mouth, "I can see why you no-called it."

I really need to see the video, but from the sounds of it, he ended the conversation and then calmly walked over and called the T.

And howinthehell do you know what behavior the official used, or what Huggins actually said to the official? Do you know if Huggins started the conversation with a question, didn't like the answer and then went off on the guy?

Nope, you don't know a damn thing about what really went on, but you're still adamant that it had to be the official's fault and not Huggins.

You ain't one of us, podner. That's for sure.

Sad.

In a perfect world, the second TF would be given by one of your partners, BUT there are times when the coach just does not cooperate.

I have had two head coach ejections where the TF's were rapid fire. The first was a HC in a women's college team and the second was the HC in a boys' H.S. varsity game. In both cases I had called a foul on one of their players and before I could report the foul, the HC came on the floor to complain, they both blew threw stop signs to get the first TF and kept coming while I was backing up after the first TF.

The women's college game was back in the days when we still used two-man crews and I was officiating with an official who was officiating his very first college game; he had only been officiating for six years and really had no business on a college game yet with regard to game management skills because he just froze when the coach came onto the court.

The boys' H.S. varsity game was a three-man crew and to be honest my partners dropped the ball, because the HC blew past my partner to get at me.

MTD, Sr.

The same way that you're supporting an official that called a "T" on a coach, and you're stating that the "T" was wrongly called BEFORE you even found out from your partner WHY the "T" was actually called?

No thanks, I'd rather work alone than have support like that.

Never said that it wasn't Huggy's fault. My point is that it is never a good idea to get into a huddle with a team. Of that I AM adamant. If the official gave an explaination, it would be obvious very quickly whether a coach likes it or not. At that point why not try to de- escalate the situation and walk away? Give a stop sign? What is wrong with that?
I watched the game, watched the video, and can judge how it looked, which is all I am doing. Have no idea what was said by either of them, never claimed I did.
And I am sorry I made you sad. I really am a pretty upbeat person. Even when wearing polyesther and be criticized by fans/coaches/announcers etc. Life is too short to be sad!

You claimed that the T wasn't deserved, without knowing what was said. You didn't just stop with, "It looked bad." You went to "I disagree that it was deserved." It's entirely possible it was a mistake, but we don't know what was said.

Gee willikers. I believe I clarified my position that it could have been handled better. I retracted the statement, and will do so again,that the "T" was not warranted. See if we were working a game together there would be a whole lot more information. In a game we would actually BE partners, while in this case we are only couch potatoes from across the continent. While not actually BEING at the game I am going to go out on a limb that the crew discussed this play after the game, and information was exchanged about what was said and they probably analyzed if there was anything they could have done different or better. Is that so wrong?

WHat if Huggins said "Please give me a T after we're done talking to fire up my team... (and added an ******* or something in to make sure you complied :cool:)

I stand corrected. I am not trying to make a case as to whether it was justified or not.
Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion that I no doubtedly have caused by miscommunicating in my typing I apologize for any confusion, increased blood pressure, foul language, or destroyed computer hardware that my mis communication has caused.:D

I would have Gene Hackman flachbacks from Hoosiers and look to see in Dennis "Shooter" Hopper was on the bench?

Please don't misconstrue what I said. I'm not sad. I think that you...and people like you...are sad. And nothing that you've said so far has made me alter my thinking.

You ain't one of us, podner. We don't eat our own.

Uh Eh Uh Ah Ah Ting Tang Walla Walla Bing Bang ...
 

Like Abracadabra, Alakazam, Hocus pocus, Presto chango, Sim Sala Bim, or Shazam?

I am not sure where I was "eating" anyone. I have modified my original position, which hopefully has made it more clear We don't know anything about each other yet you already have me labeled as someone who you would not work with and that people "like me" make you sad. Who is turning on whom?
As for not "being one of you" does that mean I don't get to sit with the cool kids at lunch?:)

"Pardon me, do you have any Grey Poupon?"
"Wow, I could have had a V8!" (Sounds like T!)

Even though I do agree with the point of his post that you had no basis to disagree with the T that was called, that is no reason to assume you'd sell out a partner or not back them up. He just likes to dump on people for the fun of it. Just ignore him. Rather than trying to understand what you meant or to educate you, he has more fun ridiculing and belittling you....it is his way of making himself feel more important.

RUST Thanks. I obviously could/should have phrased it better. Not disagreeing with the T just thinking it could have been handled better.

I would like to think an experienced D1 official wouldn't go into the team huddle without a good reason. Who knows? I've been wrong before and will be again.

+1

Yup, and they won't toss coaches without a good reason either. Not if they want to keep their job.

And that's exactly what you fail to comprehend. You don't KNOW how it was handled. You weren't within listening distance and you aren't privy to anything factual that went on. You have no idea what was actually said or done by ANY of the involved parties. But notwithstanding your absolute lack of knowledge, you still insist that it could have been handled better.

And that's just wrong, whether you want to believe that or not.

Are we having fun yet.:D

I am personally having a ball!! (pardon the pun!) As for JR he may just be upset b/c he missed Salisbury Steak nite at the home!
Since it was on TV, and there was video I have a VERY good idea what was done. Granted I don't have a rabbit eared black and white television set like JR may have, but the new fangled HD DVR, in color even, came in handy. Of course to turn the tables on JR how do we know that the officials in the game didn't go back to the locker room and say "Man, we could have handled that better." What if there were more officials than me and my band of merry/sad souls who saw that incident and said "How would I handle a situation like this"? While you may not agree, to me that is making officials BETTER. Having people THINK about what they would do when faced with certain situations is a GOOD thing. In fact I INSIST upon it! No one is getting thrown under the bus here. No one is berating the officials as Bad Officials. Obviously they are VERY GOOD. Tony D Tiger may even call them Grrreeaatt!
I am not sure how this is any different than comments on other missed violations, fouls, mechanics or any thing ELSE that is discussed on this board.

Carry on carrying on, Judtech. Maybe someday you'll understand..... but I kinda doubt it. I'm done with it and you.

And this would be YOUR way of feeling more important???:cool:

Are you even serious?

I don't dump all over someone because I disagree with them. It is far more productive and beneficial to have a dialog instead of an insult fest. Our new visitor was blindsided with vitriol for no good reason. That is simply not the way people should be treated.

You dumped on JR because you disagree with him.

Disagree: JR engaged in dialog, visitor stuck to his guns, JR called him out. Did you read the entire thread? Seemed productive to me.

JMO.

No longer though.

Time to let this one die a natural death.

Opinion appreciated, Mike.

I dump on you, you dump on me, somebody stands up for me. This could go on all day, and it does.

What can the average official (I'm very average) learn from this situation with Huggins?

1. It's good to have rules of thumb like not going to the team's huddle at the begining of a timeout and not having the same official give both Ts

2. Rules of thumb don't always apply. Sometimes you HAVE the give the coach or the player the boot right away

3. Nobody knows what exactly was said but everyone who saw the video came away with their perception. (I would like to know what Stuart was doing there in the first place but if it was Huggins who called him over, then so be it)

4. Some coaches (like Huggins) have a hard time restraining themselves. Whether the ejection was warranted or not, I don't know. But I do know that Huggins used the word "motherf***ker" when he was speaking to Cahill after the Ts. Hardly a class act.

We had an official in our area eject a coach on successive technical fouls earlier this year. The first T was for loudly objecting to a call. About 15 seconds later, the coach quietly commented that he would contact the league. He was gone. In my opinion, the official could have easily ignored the second comment because he was one of the only people in the gym who heard it. He felt the comment by the coach was undermining him. From an outsider's point of view, it appeared that this official was eager to hand out the second T.

To me, this 2nd T should be an easy call. No matter which way you look at it, he's threatening the official; he's also testing him to see if he has any stones. When I was in Iowa, a directive came from the state that explicitly said we were to toss a coach who threatened to rate us poorly.

I agree. That deserves a ticket home.

"You'll never work this [school, conference, league] again" is a ticket to the locker room for me.

If the coach has the power to get me chunked from a conference (as apparently a local football coach did, since I haven't worked that conference in 6 years), then I'd rather not work the conference at all. In the meantime I can't think of one good reason to let that coach finish the game.

Technical fouls are just part of the game. I do not know what was said, but I will say judging Coach Huggins behvior throughout the years I feel it's been overdue to run his A**. I'm sure the Big East will look into this and hand out punishment as they seem fit. I tried not to give the second techincal but sometimes you just have to flat out handle your business. Nobody has more respect for sports officials than us. But sometimes those officials are afraid to handle business.

The crew for the game was:

John Cahill
Mike Stuart
Michael Stephens

I do not know who whistled the T's.

The information is out there, but I still ask why it matters. My assumptions:
1. If the guy who called the Ts is a long time official, I'll defer to his judgment and assume he had a good reason for being in the huddle. And Huggins should have known better.

2. If the guy who called the Ts is newer to the league, and a younger official, I'll defer to his judgment and assume Huggins was testing him. He passed.

Whether he needed to be in the huddle or not is not for me to judge, because I don't have all the information I would need to make that assessment.

John Adams doesn't like the official in the huddle (see the Andy Katz thread), but again I wonder why that really matters since Adams doesn't hire these guys to work in the Big East. Somebody should ask the commissioner of the Big East and he can say what's expected.

Unless we have talked to the officials, unless we know what was said or what was not said, I really think the reasons for the T are all speculation. We have no idea what the conversation was directly about or if it was about some other play that did not take place. It might have even been about a previous game. This is why I hate these so-called absolutes officials like to claim that are valid. He was probably in the huddle because the coach was trying to engage him. And if he was across the court coach Huggins still would have been yelling. Until we know for sure what was said I really think it is silly for those to claim this is how it should have happened. Because I can think of a few things if they were said to me I do not care that I am the one that gives both Ts. Giving Ts and the reason for them are personal. The rules do not say what is or what is not specifically a T in many situations. And when I hear people all the time claim that certain actions are flagrant on the spot, how the heck do any of us know what was said. Huggins has a history of flying off the handle and even was ejected in an NCAA Tournament game a few years back while at Cincinnati. All I have to do is look at the person involved and that tells me all I need to know.

Peace

Mike Stuart called both "T"s. He's in his 14th. year of doing D1 ball and is on both the SEC and Big East staffs. He's worked in 10 straight NCAA tournaments before this year, and last year he did 4 rounds.

I'll also assume he's got a pretty good idea of what he's doing. :)

I'm all for pointing out the mistakes of the new visitor...and Jurrassic was completely right on the points related to what the visitor had said about the T being deserved or not. Unfortunately, he extrapolated what the visitor said to put words in his mouth about what kind of partner he'd be...totally unwarranted and unjustified. As much as JR clearly knows about officiating (he's usually right), he just can't seem to have a debate on the points without insulting someone or exaggerating their words. That is what is wrong. Treat the new guy with every bit of respect you expect for yourself...even if the other person is completely wrong.

It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, I am NOT a big man - Chevy Chase "Fletch Lives"
BUT being 6'4"...........
I believe I DID admit my error in judging the warrantedness (if that is even a word) of the "T". If not, I offer once again my Mea Culpa, throwing my self on my sword while ripping my clothes and sitting on a pile of ashes while wearing sack cloth.:D
Can't we all just get along? - Rodney King

Just for the record, the other issue seems to be your insistence that it was handled incorrectly without having the necessary information.

OK. I happen to agree with JR that what people say reflects their character, and that you can learn a lot about what kind of partner someone would be by listening carefully to what they say. Not everything, but a lot.

JR's inferences seem a little too quick sometimes, but then again he's experienced a lot more partners than I have. You find his conclusions "totally unwarranted and unjustified." I disagree with that, and in any case his point might be that people need to be more aware of the connections between what they say and how they behave on the court.

When JR says "you're full of crap, and you probably throw partners under the bus," perhaps he's really making a more general point like: "People who say crap like that make terrible partners." Maybe his mode of expressing it comes off sounding personal; but the lesson behind it might be true, and so worth learning from, no?