how to deal with new, but arrogant, official?
 

I was assigned to officiate 4 biddy games with a referee who is new to basketball but not new to officiating (did volleyball for 5 or 6 years). After the first game I asked if I could give him some constructive criticism and he said yes.

I asked if he knows the PCA for each officials and he said yes. Then I asked why he called a travel in my area, right in front of the coaches when it was definitely not a travel. He then went on a semi-rampage about how he coached biddy basketball for the wreck league in the next town over, and he didn't like how his kid was getting fouled all the time and the refs wouldn't call it because one might not have seen it in his area and the other wasn't looking there. Then he said that if he sees it he's calling it. I told him "well, you still need to look ONLY in your area and I will take care of the fouls if it is in my area" and he still went on about his kid getting fouled and all that jazz.

I then told him "ok, but I'm telling you this and take it for what it's worth. Coaches will know which official is supposed to call which fouls, and if you're calling something way out of your area, they'll go ape**** even if you're correct. You shouldn't be looking there, and don't call something if it's right in front of the other official who has the better view and is closer to the play". I left it at that.

How would you deal with someone who just started and won't look in his/her own area after repeatedly being told so? I know he's been told by other officials, because my one buddy ref'ed with him during biddy games and he's the type to tell you what you're doing wrong and will get pissed if you're looking in his area and calling a violation or foul, especially if there wasn't one.

Let it go. I won't ask someone if they want some "constructive criticism." If they don't ask you for some advice, don't offer it.

Once you offered and he agreed, you maybe could have simply asked him what he saw on that play.

Once he starts defending himself, however, drop it and move on.

My advice....don't! If they don't want to learn then that's their lost. If he calls in my PCA it better be something BIG!

fromm what you have told us, I would say this person is beyond hope and you are just wasting your breath talking with him. I would suggest you request not to work with this official. :(

Put him on a plane and send him to me. I'll work just one game with him. By the time he goes back home, you won't have a problem with him anymore. :cool:

I wanted to somehow say "hey, don't look in my area" without being rude about it, which is why I asked for constructive criticisms. I do this with a lot of new officials and tell them "take it or leave it".

When he started defending himself, I did try to drop it but he just kept going on his semi-rampage and I've tried to change the topic many times but he just wouldn't shut up. He was starting to piss me off as I obviously had.

Thanks Snaqs

I agree he's beyond hope. I will be doing just that next year.

You pay the plane tickets or me? 50/50 maybe? I send him, you return him?:rolleyes:

Sure. Just send me your debit card number and PIN. :cool:

Mistake number one is the way you addressed the issue IMO. You first asked if he wanted you to give him advice, unless you are in a position to give that kind of advice (President of and organization, clinician, trainer, assignor or evaluator).

Secondly you should not say to anyone "Why did you call.......?" You should ask them, "What did you see?" Then allow them to tell you what they saw, and then give your critique if you find the answer not satisfying. And just because he has been told before or not does not mean that person respects you or wants your advice. Now they might say "yes" to your question because they are being nice, but then you have to on some level accept they may not like what you have to say.

I would not call that arrogant because an official does not agree with you. I have seen officials just disagree on what they should be called and why and that does not mean someone was arrogant. It might mean they simply disagree. Now the answer you told us might not be valid, but that is not your concern. It was one call, there are many times when calls might be made in your area, it is just a matter of how often and situation that might make that proper or justified. And just because someone officiates in another sport does not mean there is an understanding of protocol in another sport they are newer at. Yes officials have a leg up when they have done it before in some other capacity, but the expectations do not always apply the same. If volleyball officials in your area are like the ones around me, they work alone a lot and do not have to deal with other partners for many of their games.

Peace

Ok, what's your email address?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not responsible for any porn spam emails you get in the near future if you send me your email address.:D

The best approach is, as Rut also suggests, to simply ask him what he saw on that play. After he tells you, you can explain why you passed on it (no control, dribbling, etc.).

With a first year BB official, I'd be very hesitant to tell him anything about PCAs in this context. Sometimes it's hard enough to get them to blow the whistle at all, and if you get them thinking too much it's all over.

You're better off trying to find a positive reason to get them to look off ball rather than a reason not to watch the ball. He took your advice as "hey, stay out of my area!"

That goes triple for a "biddy" game. You're better off actually discussing the traveling play than worrying about long distance rates.

I agree. And to me that sounds more arrogant than a younger official that does not know any better. If you are going to go down that road, you should discuss the play and not focus so much on the PCA as that is a concept that takes some time to learn for many officials. But if you say that you had a different look and you saw the play differently, any smart official might realize they have more to learn and might be more receptive to some level of criticism.

Peace

I wasn't talking telephone with him!:rolleyes:

Nah, seriously though, I do appreciate the tips you and Rut have given to me. It was my first time dealing with a new official who acted this way. I'll keep that in mind for the next new official I end up working with next year. Thanks again!

Apparently it is difficult for many to drop the ball watching habit. For some, even if they really want to, they just can't help it.

"I know, I know, I shouldn't have called it from there, but it just looked so obvious........" etc. etc.

Your guy apparently has no intention of dropping the habit, so GIGDGO.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Not saying it was a travel, but in Rule 2.4.1 in officials maunual it says typically an official should call violations in his/her PCA, but any violation observed should be called. The newbie probably was wrong but violation doesn't necessarily have to be in PCA.

You are not wrong about what the rule book says...your mistake would be the same mistake made by the newer official in the OP - looking at the ball handler when he is not in your PCA. There's no reason to do that, and it simply leads to more problems than it fixes.

Nothing has to be only in your PCA, but if you make a traveling call across the floor six feet in front of your partner it makes the crew look bad, even if the call is correct. If you make this call and you are wrong, it is totally unacceptable.

Solution: Trust your partner(s) and concentrate on your own area.

If you see an elephant in your partners area, make the call. If you see an insect, leave it alone.

I've been completely wrong on obvious calls right in front of my partners.

What if the elephant had LGP? ;)

Then it's a travel. :)

Working 3-person Saturday afternoon. Two good partners. I'm the L tableside near the end of the game. Dribbler runs defender right into a blind screen -- time and distance not an issue as the screener was stationary for a long, long time -- and looking through the back of the screener peripherally, it looked like the defender planted the screener.

But I had two partners looking right at it and, well, I trust them.

In the locker room, both said how the girl embellished the contact and actually smacked her hands on the floor to try to draw a call from both of them.

Now, what if I saw this as an elephant and jumped in -- to "save the day."

There's a reason we don't reach very often and are willing to allow a partner to be wrong rather than jumping in ourselves: Who's to say our view of it is the *right* one?

Sounds like a really small elephant. The rule only applies to full grown African elephants.*







*Indian elephants are smaller.

And their ears aren't shaped like Africa. :cool:

Set up a scrimmage/practice game/kiddie game and schedule this official to work.
Get the two coaches on board with the following plan ahead of time. You arrange for a time when the official is ball-watching outside of his PCA and then you have two players in his area start an altercation. Could be as simple as having one kid go to the ground holding his face and yelling. Have a bunch of other people holler, "He punched him! Didn't you see that, ref? It was right next to you."

This individual needs to understand why it is important to watch his primary area. Until a severe off-ball situation happens there, he won't grasp the concept.

I've had two recurring fantasies while watching two ball watchers work a JV game in front of us.

The first fantasy is that I'm the coach of one of the teams and I use the fact that they're ball watchers to get away with everything I possibly could.

The other fantasy is that I'm playing in a rec game with those ball watchers working and use my knowledge to get away with anything *I* want to. I'd probably limit myself to quick pushes in the back on rebounds and just manhandling the post player, though.

I Want My 10% ...
 

"If you see an elephant in your partners area, make the call. If you see an insect, leave it alone." © 2010 just another ref

+1 I've worked with some pretty good officials who NEVER, unsolicited, offer constructive criticism without being asked to.

This is not original. I stole it. I thought it came from here and everybody knew it.

rep -- one other piece of advice. From this partner, learn this valuable lesson: Don't ever BE this guy. Don't ever be the ref that everyone says, "I can't work with him -- ugh!"

Just the opposite.....
 

Last night, 2 x B15U games. Good league. Tough games setting up for end of season playoffs. Emotions are high.

First game, no partner - nice. :( I do the best I can. Thankfully, pretty easy game to call. No complaints from anyone really.

Game two - no way to do that by myself. Gonna be a rough one. I recruit the adult scoreboard op (not the Eagle, he's on IR) from the first game as he's willing to assist. What a pleasant surprise. While he was really, really rough, only knew some basics, and had trouble with the whistle, he did ok. He asked for pointers. He listened, watched, hustled, got in position, etc. He was better than some "seasoned officials" I've had. Again, few complaints. Overall, a good experience!

Hopefully, he'll pick it up and move forward - we can always use good, new officials.

Rep,
At the risk of beating Mr. Ed (BillyMac and others will get the reference), here are a few thoughts -- some from the same angle, some from a different angle.

Your partner gave you TWO pieces of information:
1. He has several years experience as a volleyball official AND
2. He had been a COACH for several years in a recreational league.

Officials at the recreational area vary WIDELY from community to community. In Central Ohio, the Catholic Youth League (most would know it as CYO, but we are not a member of CYO) uses ONLY licensed OHSAA/NFHS officials. At the 4th - 6th grade levels, there are some newer (1st/2nd year officials), but many are varsity officials. The 7th/8th grade levels feature nearly all varsity high school officials. Some communities also only use OHSAA/NFHS officials at the 4th - 8th grade levels -- though most of these leagues use newer officials. While some of these new officials may have done other sports, most have not. New officials typically do not blow their whistle very often. Therefore, the experienced officials are left with three options: let his partner on his own (resulting in many an elephant and other large animals being missed in one part of the court while even very small game is captured in other parts), call in the junior partner's area to make the game consistent in all areas or use a hybrid approach of allowing the newbie a chance to make calls, but stepping in to call the elephants as necessary.

Other communities, including my community (which happens to be one of the higher income areas therefore, money is NOT the reason) use non-licensed high school officials. Each of my boys only played one year in this league.
In these leagues, I assure you there is NO PRIMARY COVERAGE AREA!!! Typically, one of the officials is a "senior" official -- meaning that he was a HS junior or senior who had worked the league for at least one year previously. The other is a first year official. In these leagues, coaches typically LOVE to have a call made in any case.

For coaches who have only coached at these levels, there can be a tremendous frustration level. Further, at the 4th/5th and 6th grade recreational level, it is POSSIBLE for a single official to make nearly ALL FOUL CALLS!!!

For the record, I would disagree with your assertion that many recreational coaches have a clue as to what primary areas are in basketball. Their view is "whoever is closest should call it." For example, when the ball is near the lead's sideline and a foot above the free throw line, the lead is typically only about 20' from the play while the trail may be about 25 - 30 feet or more from the ball. Further, the lead has to keep one eye on the play to make sure that the ball does not go out of bounds. BUT, the trail official has primary coverage on this play. VERY FEW coaches know this fact -- especially recreational coaches. Another example, when a drive is coming from the wing on the trail's side (two person), as long as the ballhandler stays outside the lane on the drive -- even if the drive is a baseline (oops, sorry, endline) drive -- this is the trail's primary. Once again, the lead could be much closer to this play, BUT it is still in the trail's primary. Most coaches just want us to get the call right, they could not care less who the primary calling official should be.

I have watched many JV officiating crews -- even THREE MAN crews -- have ALL officials watching the ball. This is actually a very hard habit to break -- especially for those who have not coached at a higher level than recreational ball. Folks who have PLAYED can be even worse. Most spectators at a game ONLY look at the ball. Therefore, ball watching is very common and a very hard habit to break. Therefore, it is very common for new officials to ball watch.

Now, fast forward to your game. Your partner made ONE call in front of you. Big deal. In many of your previous posts you have tended to overreact in some situations. You can also learn here. If a partner makes a call in your area once in while, no big deal. Move on.

Nevadaref pointed out an excellent example why off ball coverage is important. At the same time, your volleyball/basketball partner could likely do these recreational games for 10 years and NEVER have a bad problem (punch thrown, etc.) off ball. Off ball coverage becomes MUCH more important as you move to more competitive leagues -- travel leagues, competitive junior high, freshman, junior varsity and varsity high school.

As Rich poined out, in 3-person, it is VERY COMMON for a non-PCA official to make a travel call. This is especially true when the ball is on/near the block or in the lane. The lead is frequently focused on the upper body action. Therefore, frequently the trail gets a better view of the footwork.

Bottom line: Lots of reasons for a single call being made in your area. Don't worry about it. Move on....and don't take it personally.....

CMH - sounds like you hang around in my two Rec Leagues! Much of what you say is very accurate for my situation too.

As has been said before - in Rec Leagues you get what you pay for in the way of coaches and officials.

I do the best I can, sometimes under difficult circumstances, and most appreciate it.

Well written.

I'd hope it is common - this is how it should be done; travel calls in the post come from the trail in 3 man :-)

Bottom line is, if you offer unsolicted advice, (not recommended) you might want to have more than two varsity games under your belt before you proceed.

It makes you look like the arrogant one in this case.

:rolleyes: Someone had to say it... lol

I have been working basketball for over 10 years and varsity for over 10 years. I am a president of one of my organizations in basketball. I am a registered clinician in my state as well and run a clinic for state during the summer run by the IHSA Official's Department. I do not under any circumstances give advice to officials I do not know or that do not ask for advice.

The only place I will give unsolicited advice is here. :D

Peace