Moving Picks with Video question??
 

Hey guys,

I am not a Ref, but the dredded parent :eek:

Sorry but I have a 9 year old girl in Basketball and we played this one team that sets picks on every offensive play bringing the ball down the court.

Ok, great no problem. Except almost everytime they come running to set the pick it is moving and they come from behind and wrap their arms around our girls, move with us, or hook us.

I was just begging for fair calls. The first game we got no calls and this happened like 20 times I kid you not. This game I was determined for our girls to try and beat it. Coach said go under the pick, I learned one thing YOU CANNOT GO UNDER MOVING PICKS, THEY ARE ALLWAYS moving with you. I tried to yell moving picks and the refs seemed to not even know what was going on. And I will tell you why. These girls all bunch up so it appears that the girl is running in to get a pass from the ball carrier but oh not so Mr Ref
they are wrapping up our girls.

Anyway here is just a few of the clips on my webspace. I can add more of the same but I will run out of webspace but it went on the whole game. You can see the Ref looking right at them. Why no calls?

Basket Ball Video

Sorry, this probably not the place to post this but would like your opinon and suggestions on calmly how to discuss with a Ref.

It was truly brutal to watch the whole game like this. They practically tackled our girls and in one of them they did. I left the audio in so I guess you can hear I am a little frustrated at this :mad:.

Can two girls set picks on both sides of you, moving at that, and can they put their arms out wide :confused:?

Thanks, Lostdog...Yes sorry but my first post.

First of all there is no such rule as "moving screen." Screens are allowed to move all the time and be legal. Also screens can be still and illegal, which is why the term should not be used. Time and distance applies to screens so at the time of contact all that is relevant was a screener giving the proper time and distance before contact.

And I just watched the first video. And if you want to have a serious conversation about basketball, first of all show some kids that are older and everyone is not in practice gear. Get a grip, it appears these are little girl's games where the kids can barely walk and chew gum yet. This did not even look like middle school kids.

Peace

Thanks for the laugh

Well, I watched the videos.

(1) I'd rather claw my eyes out than work a game like this.

(2) The attempts to screen where the players hold, hook, and grab are clearly illegal -- team control fouls. If these aren't being called, you should just save money on officials.

(3) The one called "doublepicksmov" has nothing illegal in it. Players moving around your players without contact are doing nothing illegal. You can't have a foul here without contact. Period.

Please learn #3. And if you live near me, #1. Unless you are paying $50 a game or more, in which case I'll be happy to take your money for an hour's "work."

I guess I should add that this league is man to man and no zone defense allowed if that matters.

Lostdog

Oh no, this sureasheck IS the place to post this.

Nine year old kids? In a freaking rec league? With student refs that probably have never had any formal training?

Are you kidding me?

Whatintheheck is the matter with you? Get a grip on yourself. These are freaking young kids that are out there trying to have some fun. And they don't need whining, crybaby parents like you spoiling their fun.

Do everybody in that league a favor. Drop your kids at the door and then go home. They don't need parents like you around.

If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask. we'll always be here for you.


Lah...freaking me......:rolleyes:

and we wonder what has happened to sportsmanship. . .
 

I looked at the videos you linked us to, and one thing is obvious to me. This is going to be difficult, and perhaps even offensive for you to hear, but it is true. You, and parents like you, are why kids in high school athletics have little or no concept of sportsmanship.

What in the world are you thinking? Moving pick???? Are you SERIOUS???? In the first video, the dribbler loses the basketball, and then secures it while on her knees on the floor, and we can hear you yelling about a moving pick in the background. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that it really WAS a moving pick, did it work? Was the girl who was on her knees given some sort of advanatage by virtue of the alleged moving pick?

I next moved on to the "double pick" video. There are two girls who are trying to set a pick. I can see no contact whatsoever as a result, so in answer to your question, there is no foul. But that is the least of our concerns here. I couldn't bring myself to look at the other clips, but I'm sure they are more of the same.

As you sit in the stands yelling at the teenagers who are trying to officiate something that only remotely resembles a basketball game, exactly what is it that you are trying to teach the children? If things go wrong, make sure you find someone else to blame?

I want you to try and picture something in your mind. Imagine how that game would look if the referees called each and every foul, and each and every violation, that occurred in the game. I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't go more than 20-30 seconds without having a whistle blow. And then you could start yelling "come on, they're just kids, let them play" instead of "moving pick, moving pick!!"

Honest to God, sir, you need to take a really hard look at yourself. You are so obsessed with making sure your daughter's team wins that you take the time to post video from a grade-school basketball game so you can tell someone "yeah, I asked some real referees, and they say we got cheated." And please don't come back with that "we just want a fair shake" baloney. I'm sure that for every "moving pick" that was missed against the other team, there were countless travels, double dribbles, 3-seconds, lane violations, etc., etc. that your team got away with as well. That's how it works when LITTLE CHILDREN play basketball. It isn't about winning. It's about learning.

What are YOU teaching them??? :(

I answered straight up, but I was thinking this.

:D
Pretty comical!
Sit back, mellow out, relax and enjoy.

#1. It's not real basketball.
#2. It's not real officials.
#3. It's not real coaches.

Looks like supervised recess.

Fair enough guys. I will do the best I can to learn from your suggestions. Been a tough day and I thank you for some honest feedback.

Lost dog

I agree and I wanted to say things worse. But I am trying to live a Christian lifestyle. ;)

Peace

This was so painful to watch. Ouch. I can't even remember coaching at that level......

I hear these parents and coaches every weekend. Thankfully, small consolation, I never take games at this young an age anymore.....I just can't do it/take it.

As Clint Eastwood would say, "A man's got to know his limitations." And that's one of mine!

Video link won't work for me.

Personally I think you should be able to get on this board and ask questions without being ganged up on.

Your question was valid, albeit premature for this level of play. The mechanics of basketball are barely identifiable until kids get into around 6th grade and higher. Ref'ing a game like that is VERY challenging because these kids can barely control their bodies, to say nothing of truly understanding the dynamics of the game.

Having said that, you have the right to come onto this board and ask a question anytime. And we ought to be able to answer it with at least some level of professionalism and manners.

Oh, is that right? The same professionalism and manners that this individual used when he was screaming at a couple of teen-aged officials, trying to intimidate them into making calls in his 9-year old daughter's favor?

Know what, Paul? Every year I have to talk to the officials that are quitting our association because they feel that it just isn't worth taking the abuse any more that they have to take from the stands. So, feel free to sympathize with these whiny parents. I'll think that I'll stick with my fellow officials.

First of all no one is ganging up on anyone. You come to an open forum you and ask for opinions you are allowed to hear what those have to say. If you do not like the answers, this might not be the place for you as well as many other places will not be the right places for that person. And when you have a parent that has totally lost perspective as to what their child is doing, then they need to told what is up. This is at best a rec league that does not have the wherewithal to hire trained officials. And honestly this is a joke if someone cannot understand how silly their position is. Someone needs to tell adults that they are taking the complete and total fun out of sports for their kids. There used to be a time when kids played on their own and that was the best thing. Now we have parents that think winning some kid’s game is a right or an obligation. And they wonder why qualified and trained officials want nothing to do with these games.

Peace

I understand your frustration. As an official I share it. But is the answer to become what they are? If someone is acting like an idiot should I lower myself to the same level of behavior and justify it by saying they started it?

At least the guy who posted the original question was willing to come onto a board loaded with officials to present his question. He could have just kept b****ing and complaining but he came onto OUR turf to get some clarity. We like to complain about parents who are ignorant of the rules. Well here was one guy willing to DO something about it. I'm just saying we shouldn't crucify him for making a positive effort toward getting smarter. That's all.

I couldn't agree more!!!

I disagree Paul for this reason. It is not our job to just go along with this person that comes here complaining. He asked a question and I think frankly that question was a little absurd on so many levels. This is not the NBA or the WNBA for that matter. This is not even the college ranks. This is not even where the officials are hand picked and we have a parent that wants to debate what is or is not a foul with a bunch of kids that cannot dribble. And if he does not understand that, this is not our problem. Sometimes people need to be put in place or told off to realize that what they are complaining about is silly. And to complain about "moving screens" when the girl is not even trained to know what to do and then get mad at the officials that are in shorts and probably were never trained in anything to do these games is just and expected. And yes I also agree with JR about siding with the officials. It is not our job to make him feel good about himself. But these kinds of complaints rub me the wrong way when I try to train officials to become better and you have fans that would never put their hat in the ring, but complain because the media tells them this behavior is acceptable.

Peace

For what it's worth, from my experience as a coach, fan, player and official, yelling about something like this rarely helps the situation and only serves to make it more contentious.

Does the video work for everybody except me?

I actually direct/officiate a league where some of the players are this young.
Much of it is basketball that only a parent could love. There are limits to what can be taught at this age, but for the "screeners" not to tackle the defenders is not too much to ask. But you are unlikely to get any satisfaction in this regard by screaming at teenagers wearing whistles.
If you are that interested, go to the league director and inquire about what it would take to hire registered officials. Likely the issue is at least partly financial and would require an increase in the entry fees for the players. Ask some of the other parents if they share your concerns and would be willing to ante up. Then proceed accordingly.

Yeah you did not see much of the video. I did not see anyone tackle each other. It was mostly bad form and laughable to call much of a foul on at least two of the videos.

Peace

Darn, the videos were taken down. I wanted to see these comical videos myself. Guess I was too late :(

Better yet, volunteer to call the games yourself. Come back to this board for training/study material and let us help you become a capable official.
Win-Win. Your league gets a mature adult to call games, you get some exercise and a greatly improved perspective on youth sports.

Reading is fundamental. I did not see any of the video. The link apparently is now dead.

I don't think this is the answer. This mature adult may have less basketball experience than the kids doing the job now. As near as I can tell from some of the comments by viewers of the video, the account in the OP may not be a perfect view of the facts.

Why doesn't someone just post the rule so this parent can read the rule for himself, then ask for our clarification.

Instead of laughing at this parent, and the quality of basketball in the video, let's remember that we were all that young once, and some of us have officiated these leagues before. Get off your high horses and help educate one fan.

It was available the first time you claimed you could not see it. I even saw the video after you claimed you could not see it again. It was just removed. Then again, no one ever accused you of being on top of things. :D

Peace

Give it time, you will see.
 

You have not been here very long either. Wait until mid March through the NCAA Tournaments, you will see what we are talking about. This place will be crawling with fans that saw their high school teams lose and saw something on the NCAA Tournaments that they did not understand. And if you quoted a rule to them, where are they going to read this for themselves? I am on another site that is mostly fans and I just had a fellow official try to argue with officials a rule that was quoted out of the rulebook. This is not being on a high horse; this is realizing that no matter what you say these folks will always think they know better. And if you do not want an opinion DO NOT ASK FOR ONE!!!! :eek:

Peace

Whether I've been here for one year or ten (or 90 in Padgett's case), I completely understand where you're coming from.

However, if someone puts the rule out there, I would think that if someone is sensible enough, they could read the rule, try and understand it, and move on. Lots of times on here we get visitors who really do want to understand the rule, and then they leave because they got what they came here for.

I realize not everyone is as sensible as these people are, but the least we could do is put the onus on them to read the rule.

I clicked the link, and got 404 not found.........not that unusual. And then you pop off about something you know nothing about, also not unusual.

Me neither, but Rich's #1 is priceless. I'm hoping tomorrow morning I can get it to download.

You would be surprised what ignorant people will debate until you have been in those situations. People quote rules all the time and give them all kinds of information and there are many that have never officiated a thing in their life will still consider what they heard on TV or what they "think" the rule is. Case in point what happened in a game last night after my game. There was a play where the shooter shot the ball off the backboard, the ball was below the rim, then the defender blocked the ball after the ball touched the backboard and fans where I was sitting went nuts. As a matter of fact, I even explained to the one guy that that was not GT, but he was convinced otherwise. Even heard the same thing when they were calling for fouls and their team was fouled more. You would have though the officials were totally clueless, but the fans knew better. You can quote rules all day; it is not going to mean a lot. Just search this forum and see some 1 post fan that comes up with a question and see how much they argue with logic and rules being quoted to them. It happens all the time and it will be coming soon as we are in that time of year and the crazies will come out of the woodwork. Then tell me how much logic and reasoning they will accept when you quote the rules word for word and they tell you that the officials were against them and how a certain official has hated them for years.

Peace

Yeah now you do. But I was able to click on this when you first claimed you could not see the video. Just saying. ;)

Peace

Just saying what, exactly? You say so much, so often, without actually saying anything, it's hard to keep it all straight.

Don't worry about it. I could see the videos and did see the videos. They were typical little girl's basketball where kid could hardly run without falling over each other. To even call these plays as screens was laughable at best. No one mugged anyone and in one case the dribbler fell down and players were standing over her looking like they did not have much to do. So your assertion that someone was tackled was the furthest thing from the truth. But then again you did not see the videos right? ;)

Peace

Maybe you could go hang out with those 9 year olds and improve your reading comprehension skills. I made no assertion. I was responding to the above description, a part of the OP, which was also quoted in my original post.:rolleyes:

Rut must be a high quality official. His resume speaks for itself. My question is how he manages to find his way home after the game?

I wonder how you can officiate. You are after all an official that gave a T for a high five. You cannot be much of a high level official making those kinds of calls. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../smilielol.gif

Peace

Keep trying, little buddy. Go back to that thread. Go slowly. Sound each word out individually. Maybe you will realize that I made no such call.

Honestly I do not spend much time reading your posts as you seem to do with me. But the fact that you even posted such craziness tells me everything you need to know.

Now, back to the thread. This is what you said.

I could see the link when you posted this. I even had to download the videos to watch them. I did this all after you posted this comment. Now what part is hard for you to read? The video was taken down after this. It probably was taken down because the person realized that they were not going to accomplish much by keeping them up. Oh well, but these are the things you get upset by. What else is new?

Peace

I see it's not just words that are such a struggle for you, but numbers as well. My above post was made at 2:43. Your post commenting on watching the video was made at 2:06. You do the math. Oops, probably another problem area.

This is the point when Rut usually either goes off on another tangent, or totally disappears from the thread.

I am just not that into you.
 

You really do not know do you? I was referring to I saw the videos after you posted your comments and I wanted to see if they were still up. One of these days you will get it, but not today.

There is a difference between ignoring you and disappearing. You are not someone I particularly care to talk to, so I do not like answering your little juvenile questions as you like to ask. You do not have a sense of humor. You are not funny. You take this forum too seriously and I would rather not talk to you at all. Again, keep talking about T’ing people for giving a high five (Your thread, not mine :p).

Peace

So, after I said I couldn't see them, you went back to the link, downloaded the videos again, and watched them a second time "just to see if they were still up."

You have serious issues.

The only person that has issues is you. You are once again concerned about what I say and you still are not a very accomplished official. Things have not changed. I am looking forward to you T'ing up someone for a chest bump.

Peace

Nope, you do not understand my frustration. Not at all. And I don't believe for a second that you share it. If you did, you wouldn't put me in the exact same class as that parent who was abusing young officials.

If you truly think that was the parent's intent when making that post, then you are sadly mistaken. His intent was to have us substantiate his claims about biased, brutal officiating. Did you happen to notice the claim that the officiating wasn't "fair"? Iow those calls weren't being missed both ways?

I could care less about the actual rules/calls involved or the quality of the officiating. You obviously have a rec league of some kind here, composed of 9 year-old girls and being officiated by high school students who most likely have received nada in the way of formal training. What bothers me is we have a parent of a 9 year-old girl sitting in the stands publically berating and verbally abusing those high school kids trying to officiate that game. That's the issue, not whether some damn illegal screen call got missed.

If you think that there's anything at all "positive" about that behavior, so be it. You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree completely with you and I always will. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to that.

A parent comes on to question the ability of officials in his 9 yr old daughter's game. He gets the expected response. "Get some perspective". I commend him for admitting so later on.

What happens next, two pages of arguing about when the link was removed. Guys, get some perspective.

+1

Oh -- to the OP, if s/he's still here: If you have concerns about the officiating, you should take them to the "board" for the league (or have the coach take them). The Board can decide how much emphasis to place on any particular rule and on what level of officials to hire.

They must be asleep now, wait till they wake up.

If you think that what happened meant that much to me, I am really not the person that needs some perceptive. You obviously do not know me very well. Just saying.

Peace

EXACTLY!!!!!

I completely agree. :D

If they wanted a real answer, these people would not do a "Google" search and then come here to ask questions to support some craziness. They would go to their local league people already and get a real answer. If I have a problem with a company, I do not go to the internet to complain about it. I go straight to that company as you should. There is nothing any of us can do or not do to help someone that only wants to complain. You can quote rules or mechanics it is not going to matter. It never does any other time why would that take place now?

Peace

It's too bad we chased Lostdog off.

I was looking forward to answering his follow up question on three seconds.....

The rule was explained, early. "no foul without contact."

My daughter is 9: 4th grade. All I can say is, it's a good thing there aren't dandelions on the court, or they'd be picking them.

:sigh: