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jkohls Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:38pm

New one for me...
 
BJV last night. Start of the 2Q, I'm lead. Both huddles are slow coming out on the second horn. Trail administers throwin to V, and we go. About 10 seconds in C, tableside, blows the whistle. He waves me over, and says a player got up from the bench and ran onto the floor, passing him as he ran in. T says he counted 5 before handing the ball for the throw in, and C and myself both said we also counted 5. We assess the technical and I go to the V bench to explain. I tell him that we had V11 entering, during play and without being beckoned. He tells me that 11 had been on the floor when the ball was inbounded, got counfused about if he was supposed to be in the game, and sat down. According to the coach, since he had been on the floor legally at the throw in, that gave him the right to come back in as he did. I told him that in that case, his player had left the floor iliegally and the technical was still correct. His response? "Well, it worked last Tuesday."

It was an interesting situation for us, and the coach's response was very interesting...

just another ref Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:41pm

Leaving the floor for an authorized reason is a violation, not a technical.

jkohls Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 663387)
Leaving the floor for an authorized reason is a violation, not a technical.

We discussed it at half and that came up, but since the player then returned to the floor after sitting down on the bench, we still get we were correct, even if we may have fumbled the explanation.

How would you,oh wise ones, haave handled the situation?

deecee Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkohls (Post 663390)
We discussed it at half and that came up, but since the player then returned to the floor after sitting down on the bench, we still get we were correct, even if we may have fumbled the explanation.

How would you,oh wise ones, haave handled the situation?

whats up with the retarded *** attitude. you got an answer as to how and what you should have done.

drshawnpet Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:13am

No one saw player leave floor for unauthorized reason --can't call violation; I would go with team tech for not returning at approximately same time following intermission.

Adam Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:36am

This T should be ignored if there's no advantage gained by the player coming onto the court. IOW, if it's not deceitful or advantageous, ignore it.

drshawnpet Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:45am

I agree it should be ignored if not deceitful; once whistle is blown, though, can you just 'wave it off' or does it now need to be addressed?

Adam Sun Feb 21, 2010 01:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by drshawnpet (Post 663404)
I agree it should be ignored if not deceitful; once whistle is blown, though, can you just 'wave it off' or does it now need to be addressed?

Just go IW and put it back in play. I remember a case play or interp that deals with this and explicitly says to not call the T here.

just another ref Sun Feb 21, 2010 01:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 663409)
Just go IW and put it back in play. I remember a case play or interp that deals with this and explicitly says to not call the T here.

Oh?

SITUATION 12: Following a (a) charged time-out; or (b) a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced by a substitute. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return, and he/she sprints onto the court and catches up with play. RULING: In (a), the officials shall stop play and assess a team technical foul for not having all players return to the court at approximately the same time after a time-out. The technical foul counts toward the team-foul count. In (b), the officials may permit play to continue without penalty. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court. COMMENT: Even though neither situation provided A5 or Team A with an advantage, teams are expected to return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out. The officials should have also followed the prescribed mechanics and counted the number of players on the court, ensuring each team has the legal number of players. (10-1-9; 10-3-3)

Adam Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 663417)
Oh?

SITUATION 12: Following a (a) charged time-out; or (b) a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced by a substitute. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return, and he/she sprints onto the court and catches up with play. RULING: In (a), the officials shall stop play and assess a team technical foul for not having all players return to the court at approximately the same time after a time-out. The technical foul counts toward the team-foul count. In (b), the officials may permit play to continue without penalty. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court. COMMENT: Even though neither situation provided A5 or Team A with an advantage, teams are expected to return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out. The officials should have also followed the prescribed mechanics and counted the number of players on the court, ensuring each team has the legal number of players. (10-1-9; 10-3-3)

Interesting. I guess I was conflating the two situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkohls (Post 663385)
BJV last night. Start of the 2Q, I'm lead. Both huddles are slow coming out on the second horn. Trail administers throwin to V, and we go. About 10 seconds in C, tableside, blows the whistle. He waves me over, and says a player got up from the bench and ran onto the floor, passing him as he ran in. T says he counted 5 before handing the ball for the throw in, and C and myself both said we also counted 5. We assess the technical and I go to the V bench to explain. I tell him that we had V11 entering, during play and without being beckoned. He tells me that 11 had been on the floor when the ball was inbounded, got counfused about if he was supposed to be in the game, and sat down. According to the coach, since he had been on the floor legally at the throw in, that gave him the right to come back in as he did. I told him that in that case, his player had left the floor iliegally and the technical was still correct. His response? "Well, it worked last Tuesday."

It was an interesting situation for us, and the coach's response was very interesting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkohls (Post 663390)
We discussed it at half and that came up, but since the player then returned to the floor after sitting down on the bench, we still get we were correct, even if we may have fumbled the explanation.

How would you,oh wise ones, haave handled the situation?

So, tell me, to whom did you charge the Technical foul?

Mark Padgett Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 663456)
So, tell me, to whom did you charge the Technical foul?

Rasheed Wallace.

gslefeb Sun Feb 21, 2010 01:20pm

According to the OP, the player did return to the court for the start of the 2nd qtr;

1. Team V had five players to start qtr. Therefore Sit 12 A does not apply.

2. V11 leaves court - violation? (not called)

3. V11 then comes back on to the court; is this a T for not being beckoned? I think Sit 12 B applies - A5 is supposed to be on the court, and A5's return is not deceitful - therefore play on or IW.

BillyMac Sun Feb 21, 2010 01:30pm

Answer A Question With A Question ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gslefeb (Post 663489)
V11 then comes back on to the court; is this a T for not being beckoned?

Is he a substitute or a player?

A substitute shall not enter the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official, except between periods.

gslefeb Sun Feb 21, 2010 01:33pm

BillyMac

I agree - Sub or player? Sit 12 B - seems to indicate the 5th is a player and therefore can come onto the court.

jkohls Sun Feb 21, 2010 03:27pm

Thanks for the replies.

And sorry to offend, deecee. I didn't intend to convey a "retarded *** attitude." I read the board often and respect the views of the experienced officials who post. Therefore, I asked how they might have handled the situation.

AKOFL Sun Feb 21, 2010 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 663417)
Oh?

SITUATION 12: Following a (a) charged time-out; or (b) a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced by a substitute. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return, and he/she sprints onto the court and catches up with play. RULING: In (a), the officials shall stop play and assess a team technical foul for not having all players return to the court at approximately the same time after a time-out. The technical foul counts toward the team-foul count. In (b), the officials may permit play to continue without penalty. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court. COMMENT: Even though neither situation provided A5 or Team A with an advantage, teams are expected to return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out. The officials should have also followed the prescribed mechanics and counted the number of players on the court, ensuring each team has the legal number of players. (10-1-9; 10-3-3)

This is how the interp red in the 08 rules by topic but it changed in 09. Did they change it back?

just another ref Sun Feb 21, 2010 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 663533)
This is how the interp red in the 08 rules by topic but it changed in 09. Did they change it back?

No idea. What was the change?

AKOFL Sun Feb 21, 2010 09:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 663542)
No idea. What was the change?

It is no longer a T.

Nevadaref Sun Feb 21, 2010 09:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gslefeb (Post 663489)
According to the OP, the player did return to the court for the start of the 2nd qtr;

1. Team V had five players to start qtr. Therefore Sit 12 A does not apply.

2. V11 leaves court - violation? (not called)

3. V11 then comes back on to the court; is this a T for not being beckoned? I think Sit 12 B applies - A5 is supposed to be on the court, and A5's return is not deceitful - therefore play on or IW.

Correct response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gslefeb (Post 663498)
BillyMac

I agree - Sub or player? Sit 12 B - seems to indicate the 5th is a player and therefore can come onto the court.

Again, you are correct that he is still a player, not a sub.

Paul LeBoutillier Sun Feb 21, 2010 09:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkohls (Post 663532)
And sorry to offend, deecee. I didn't intend to convey a "retarded *** attitude."

Dude, you did NOT convey a retarded attitude. Some people are just a bit too reactive. It's cool.

just another ref Sun Feb 21, 2010 09:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 663609)
It is no longer a T.

What is no longer a T?

Where is this written?

Adam Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkohls (Post 663385)
BJV last night. Start of the 2Q, I'm lead. Both huddles are slow coming out on the second horn. Trail administers throwin to V, and we go. About 10 seconds in C, tableside, blows the whistle. He waves me over, and says a player got up from the bench and ran onto the floor, passing him as he ran in. T says he counted 5 before handing the ball for the throw in, and C and myself both said we also counted 5. We assess the technical and I go to the V bench to explain. I tell him that we had V11 entering, during play and without being beckoned. He tells me that 11 had been on the floor when the ball was inbounded, got counfused about if he was supposed to be in the game, and sat down. According to the coach, since he had been on the floor legally at the throw in, that gave him the right to come back in as he did. I told him that in that case, his player had left the floor iliegally and the technical was still correct. His response? "Well, it worked last Tuesday."

It was an interesting situation for us, and the coach's response was very interesting...

Okay, here's what I see:
You all count 5 before hand. No one sees V11 leave the floor, but C sees him run past him. Did C even see him on the bench? V11 isn't a sub, so you can't charge him with a T for coming in unbeckoned. The most you can do here is charge V with a violation and give A the ball at V's bench. I'm not even sure you can do that, though, since no one saw him leave the court. For all you know, he tripped over his shoe laces and landed on the bench.

If, for some reason, you charged the T for failing to have all players come on at the same time after a TO, it's a team T; no player and no coach.

Adam Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 663609)
It is no longer a T.

Rules by topic isn't authoritative, I don't think.

GoodwillRef Mon Feb 22, 2010 01:18pm

Why are you apologizing to Deecee...he should be apologizing to you!!:(

Adam Mon Feb 22, 2010 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodwillref (Post 663774)
why are you apologizing to deecee...he should be apologizing to you!!:(

+1

deecee Mon Feb 22, 2010 03:00pm

I agree, I was out of line I just read your statement as overly sarcastic after a response was given.

My bad I need to get back on my prescribed dose of meds and not overdoing it :o

BillyMac Mon Feb 22, 2010 07:00pm

Timeout, My Hand Fell Asleep ...
 
Saturday. Boys varsity. My partner is preparing to administer a throwin when the table sounds the horn for substitutes. I'm right near the table, in front of the Team A bench. I hold up my hand to prevent my partner from handing the ball to the player for the throwin and I beckon the substitutes. Several substitutes enter the game, and several come out. My hand is still up as I do a quick count. Good thing because I count six Team A players on the court, so I keep my hand up. I wait several seconds for the extra player to leave the court, but the players don't seem to know who should come out. My hand is still up. The Team A coach is right behind me, so I tell him, "Can't play with six". He looks around trying to decide who should come out. My hand is still up. Now the Team B coach figures out that there are six opponents on the court, and yells to me, "Isn't that technical foul?". I respond, "Only if my partner hands the throwin player the ball". My hand is still up. Finally, the Team A coach yanks one of his players, my hand comes down, finally, my partner administers the throwin, and we play ball.

What is the difference between preventative officiating and coaching? How long should I, or could I, have waited?

AKOFL Tue Feb 23, 2010 01:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 663742)
Rules by topic isn't authoritative, I don't think.

I appreciate that. So is this how it reads in the new case book? I just looked this sit in the rules by topic and it is no longer a T if the player is not doing it on purpose or gaining an advantage. Don't have my case book.

AKOFL Tue Feb 23, 2010 01:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 663629)
What is no longer a T?

Where is this written?

Your sit 12. No longer a T in the 08 and 09 rules by topic. Is your sit out of the new case book?

just another ref Tue Feb 23, 2010 02:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 663966)
Your sit 12. No longer a T in the 08 and 09 rules by topic. Is your sit out of the new case book?


Situation is from the 07-08 interps. This interpretation, in my opinion, is consistent with the wording of the rule, even though I don't care much for the rule. In the current case play 10.1.9, the team does gain an apparent advantage, but this condition is not specified anywhere else.

What, specifically, does your book say about this?

And why is there yet another NFHS rules publication in the first place?

mbyron Tue Feb 23, 2010 07:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 663898)
What is the difference between preventative officiating and coaching? How long should I, or could I, have waited?

Waiting in any case does not constitute coaching because you never addressed the players.

Wait until you're convinced that he's defying you.

AKOFL Tue Feb 23, 2010 01:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 663969)
Situation is from the 07-08 interps. This interpretation, in my opinion, is consistent with the wording of the rule, even though I don't care much for the rule. In the current case play 10.1.9, the team does gain an apparent advantage, but this condition is not specified anywhere else.

What, specifically, does your book say about this?

And why is there yet another NFHS rules publication in the first place?

I appreciate your thoughts on the need for yet another rule book.:D Rules by topic is just that. It makes it easier to find certain rules because they put them together by a topic. they also provide some case plays along with them. As noted before people don't put alot of stock in this publication for whatever reason. I have found a few errors myself. So I am just trying to get to the bottom of this. It reads just as you posted but they no longer get a T if it is truly a mistake and no advantage is gained. Not arguing just tring to get it right.;)

just another ref Tue Feb 23, 2010 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 664097)
... they no longer get a T if it is truly a mistake and no advantage is gained. Not arguing just tring to get it right.;)

Would you mind quoting the passage?

AKOFL Tue Feb 23, 2010 02:56pm

10.3.3 sit B After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's front court when the coach of team A realizes they only have four players. the coach yells for A5 to return and he/she sprints directly onto the court and catches up whith the play. Ruling. No technical foul is charged to A5. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court.

Adam Tue Feb 23, 2010 03:09pm

That's a slightly different sitch. If this happens following a timeout, call the T. :)

AKOFL Tue Feb 23, 2010 03:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 664151)
That's a slightly different sitch. If this happens following a timeout, call the T. :)

that's the difference I was not getting. Thanks Snaq.;) Sorry JAR. Sometimes I can't read the details to save my own life.

gslefeb Tue Feb 23, 2010 03:21pm

10.1.9 Sit After time-out if A5 stays on the bench; then comes onto the court during action - T

10.3.2 Sit B - After subs - A5 thinks they were replaced goes to the bench and then comes onto the court during action - No T.

just another ref Tue Feb 23, 2010 03:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 664144)
10.3.3 sit B After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both teams, A5 goes to the bench and remains there believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's front court when the coach of team A realizes they only have four players. the coach yells for A5 to return and he/she sprints directly onto the court and catches up whith the play. Ruling. No technical foul is charged to A5. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court.

Something else is wrong. 10-3-3 deals with dunking and grasping.

You mean 10.3.2, right?

AKOFL Tue Feb 23, 2010 03:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 664159)
Something else is wrong. 10-3-3 deals with dunking and grasping.

You mean 10.3.2, right?

Another peice of ammo for the assasination of the rules by topic book.:p

just another ref Tue Feb 23, 2010 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 664162)
Another peice of ammo for the assasination of the rules by topic book.:p

You mean this book has them numbered differently?

Is this the book for the current year?

AKOFL Tue Feb 23, 2010 07:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 664165)
You mean this book has them numbered differently?

Is this the book for the current year?

This quote is from the 08-09. I just read it out of the 09-10 and it was the same. didn't notice the numbers though


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