Originally Posted by rwest (Post 663126)

He's entitled to his spot on the floor and he beat A1 to that spot and there is no time and distance required when defending the player with the ball. :rolleyes:

Now, I'm calling a foul, but based on what has been posted, many should call a travel if they really believe what they have said. Everything is there: LGP, spot on the floor, no time or distance required for a player with the ball.

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 663129)

Assuming the OP but make one minor correction. Lets say B1 is attempting to get up when A1 trips over them. Are you going to call a foul? If you do then might I suggest if you believe B1 is entitled to lay prone on the ground then you also have to give him that spot on the floor all the way to the ceiling due to the principle of verticality. A player is allowed to move vertically from his spot on the floor.

Now I would have a foul, becuase I don't believe that player is entitled to that spot. Now if he doesn't move, then I have a travel, because the offensive player initiated the contact. A1 didn't have to attempt to go over B1 laying on the ground. He chose to and he is the one that caused the contact.

Remember, when interpreting any document you must take the entire document into consideration. If the player is entitled to lay prone on the floor then they are entitled to verticality from that same spot to the ceiling.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 663136)

Either he's entitled to his spot or he's not. If he's not, then it doesn't matter who initiated the contact; as the rules don't mention that. It's short hand and coachspeak, but it's not rule based.

I don't need a lesson on how to read the rule book.

BTW, yes. If B1 is trying to get up off the floor and A1 runs over him, it's all on A1. A1 didn't have to run over B1 any more than B1 needed to get up. In fact, I'd say under your rules, B1 has more of an imperative to get up than A1 has to jump over B1.

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 663126)

He's entitled to his spot on the floor and he beat A1 to that spot and there is no time and distance required when defending the player with the ball. :rolleyes:

Now, I'm calling a foul, but based on what has been posted, many should call a travel if they really believe what they have said. Everything is there: LGP, spot on the floor, no time or distance required for a player with the ball.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 663150)

This is from the 2001-02 NFHS case book. It has since disappeared but the rule that it is based on (Rule 4-23-1) hasn't changed. Iow there is no valid reason imo that this case play is no longer applicable.

Case Play 10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor.
RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even though it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down.


Rule 4-23-1 GUARDING: Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.


As I said, we seem to discuss this almost monthly, with a consensus that the case play is still valid as the rule it is based on hasn't changed. For anybody that disagrees, I suggest contacting your local rules interpreter and give them the sutuation as well as the rule and old case play written above...and get their take on it.

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 663152)

I understand they periodically remove case plays even though the rule or interpretation hasn't changed. I assume it's because they want to keep the size of the book to a something less than War and Peace size!

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams (Post 663154)

Let the submarining begin . . dive, dive, dive!!!!

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 663157)

Not allowed as a tactic, I would consider that an advantage not intended by the rules, as well as a safety issue.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 663156)

That's my understanding also.

Unfortunately that doesn't help when we have to resurrect old case plays or past interpretations that were posted on the NFHS website but never made it into the case book either. You can't blame people, especially newer officials, for not being aware of some of these oldies but goodies. That's where this forum can come into play as a aid to learning.

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 663159)

They need to have a repository of old case plays that are still in effect but have been removed for space purposes. That way we can look them up.

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 663070)

4-23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an
offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard
and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is
entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first
without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder,
hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position
if contact occurs.
ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne,
provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.
ART. 5 . . . Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid
contact.
c. The distance need not be more than two strides.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position
before the opponent left the floor.