Crew Integrity
 

I was watching a boys varsity game tonight and I was able to watch the progression of how an official can undermine a partner without realizing it.
I'm sitting right behind the V bench.

Early 1st quarter, H1 throws a pass towards H2. V1 deflects it, though, and it hits the C in the feet before going OOB. Coach thinks it hit H2's feet, and protests the call. C explains it to him, takes a bit long doing it, and she tells him he needs to get back into the coaching box. Just as she's about to put the ball in play, the T hits his whistle and comes across to try to give her new info. She tells him what happened, and he agrees and they play on.

T's approach egged on the V coach. Fast forward to another close OOB call near the other bench, where she (I think) points the wrong way. Same partner approaches her and she agrees and they give the ball to V. As they're talking, V coach in front of me yells: "You've got to help her out!" It was interesting.

If you heard it, who here would have T'd him for that last comment?

Wasn't there, may not appreciate the context, but for that comment alone I would emphatically say no T.

While I wouldn't be happy to hear the comment, the comment be itself wouldn't earn a technical foul from me.

If I was the Female Ref I would have T'd him. If I was the other official I would ignore it.

what does the sex of the official matter?

as to that point it doesnt mean that her partner was undermining anyone. the story sounds weak.

It doesn't. The coach was yelling for her partner to help her, implying that she was not able to handle the job.

I know that part - I meant to imply that what does the sex have to do with the T. Either they get one or they dont regardless.

The sex has nothing to do with it. It just so happens that in the OP the official the coach was showing up was female.

How did anyone undermine anyone else? This story is not compelling in any way. No T. Just play on. Yawn...

He said the female official, not a female official....you need to re-read for proper context....has nothing to do with gender.

the quickest way to undermine yourself is to pass out unwarranted T's....no T...just inbound the ball already....

It's a HTBT scenario, and it's hard to explain in words; but given how you completely misread a different poster's intent with regard to the gender of the officials, I'm not too concerned with my inability to explain it to you.

The scenario presented itself relatively slowly, as the C took allowed the coach a good amount of rope when questioning the call. When the T came over and hit his whistle, I thought he was stepping up as R to end the back and forth between the coach and the C. When he instead chose to question her call, it gave the coach the message that the R didn't really trust his partner. If nothing else, it provided him what looked like a wedge to try to work the officials.

This particular play happened on the opposite end of the court, so it wasn't even heard. I'd like to change scenario slightly, though, and ask.

Let's assume the play happened in front of the coach's bench again, and this time he yells across to the T on the other court, "You've got to help her out!" With the history of the previous play, where he's obviously not just appealing to another official but is instead making a direct comment about her competence; do you "just inbound the ball already?"

No need to get sensitive, I can honestly not give a crap if someone wants to T here or not. You dont have to explain in words, pictures, music notes or smoke signals. I dont care.

And for further clarification I should have been specific that I was speaking to Leeballenfant because he said about T'ing if he were the woman but not the other ref. No big deal.

And you're still getting it wrong. Had nothing to do with gender. No different than if it were a 6' 9" official working with a 5' 5" official and Lee said "If I was the tall official...."

Yep, that's how I read it to.

Or, the bald official...
Or, the disheveled official...

The T question was secondary, but I'm sure you understood that. Your comment about the story being weak was made immediately after you said you didn't think the partner was undermining anyone, though. I therefore assumed I was inadequately explaining how, regardless of his intent (which was most likely "to get it right"), the result was he unwittingly undermined his partner's authority.

I'm still not seeing this. Are you suggesting partner's shouldn't get together to discuss anything for fear it will "look bad"? Some coaches will try and use anything they can to try and get into the official's heads. That's just part of the game. I think it's overblowing it a bit to say that anyone's authority was undermined in this scenario.

Good question, and no, I'm not saying they shouldn't try to get it right for fear of anything. If he had come over immediately, it wouldn't have "looked" bad. Instead, he stood opposite the table and let her flesh it out with the coach for a little bit and only came over to question her after it was clear the coach wasn't to let it go. It was at least 15 seconds after her initial call before the T came over to offer help.

He came over, blew his whistle for everyone to see, then had a 5 second discussion with her before turning around and heading back opposite.

It looked like the coach's argument made him, from across the court, question his partner's judgment.

Now, the coach was a d1ckhead anyway, so you're probably right; he would have found something else.

But you're still just guessing about why he came over and what he said, so the leap to "undermining an official's authority" seems overblown to me. Perhaps it was poor timing, perhaps not. I'm only arguing that no one's authority was undermined based on what you know and how you painted it.

Smitty, completely concur with you. In fact, I was always taught that this is exactly the way it should be done. If a non-calling official feels he/she has information about the call, they come to you and tell you what they saw. If you say you saw it differently, they go back and play on. Seems to me like this crew did exaclty that. What I am confused about in the OP is where it says the other official came across and "questioned" the call of the C. Do you know for sure he "questioned" her call, or simply came and said, "Here's what I saw..." and then got what the C called and returned to the game? If anything, from what I read in the OP, the only thing that COULD have been done differently was that the non-calling official could have come over earlier, but he may have delayed since the C was having a conversation with the coach (HTBT on that one).

Agreed, normally I'd like to see the T come over immediately on this; but it's possible he wasn't looking when she signaled and didn't know what her call was.

Or maybe he came over to help her get away from the coach as their conversation may have been lasting too long in his opinion. We just don't know, so to speculate and go so far as to call it undermining is just not fair.

I specifically stated his intent was not to undermine her; it was obvious to me he wanted to get the call right. It "looked" like the coach's continued questions made him ask her if she was sure of her call. Now that I think about it, you may be right, though.

Reviewing it in my head again, he may have used the quick conference as a way to confirm her call and get the ball back in play. My initial thought as I was watching was that she was allowing the coach way too much time to debate the call.

In the end, the chance of it appearing that way may well have been worth it to cut that conversation short.

That's How People Refer To Me ...
 

How about, "the handsome official"?

Every time I see or use that word, I think of Ross Perot's running mate in 1992.

couple of thoughts....
#1 if any partner has addl. info. to share about a play, they MUST share it ON THE COURT (don't bring it back into the locker room! it does us no good there...). I have no problem w/ the partner coming in to talk w/ said official.
#2 how is the coach making a "direct comment about her competence"?
#3 the official simply pointed in the wrong direction...that happens...and when it does, you can expect to get a little grief/comment/hassle from the coach who thought he/she was getting the ball and now is not.
#4 how does a T fit the game here? the coach griped about two out of bounds calls...big deal...talk w/ him/her and get thru it....and simply inbound the ball already.

Admiral Stockdale? A most unfortunate series of events there. The man's a true hero, both militarily and philosophically. Imagine: using Epictetus to improve the lot of POW's in the Hanoi Hilton! Genius!