Drunken Referree
 

Night off tonight...took my daughter to our local hometown game. We got there right at the end of JVB and take our seats with 20minutes on the clock until VG game. Waiting and watching to see whose working, 15 minutes on the clock, no officials, 10 minutes on the clock no officials. Finally 8 minutes until game time 3 guys I know pretty well, I've worked with 2 of them come out and get things going. Alright their behind, it happens, okay. One of the guys I know, who is a little bit of a jokster seems to be little bit more joking than usual, but I don't think anything about it, and neither do the two partners.

Well after the anthem, when the crew removes their jackets, our jokster has his shirt on backwards, and he doesn't notice. Game gets started, his calls are pretty normal, but his mechanics are awful. He can barely run and can't really walk straight. In one situation he was T and was so far out of position the point guard was running screens off of him and he didn't move. The straw that broke the back for me, midway through the first quarter hes at C and hes turned sideways talking to the cheerleaders in the front row of the bleachers. L rotates making him the new T, and we've got a fast break, he starts to walk down court such that L overruns him to take the new L.

Near the end of the quarter he turned from T to L and runs across the court stumbling and falling over. At that point the AD and school superintendant pull him out of the gym.

Here is my question, assuming you didn't pick up your partner's incapacity in pregame, at what point would you halt the game and tell him to get his backside into the locker room. And save yourself all the assignor comments, we don't have assignors in rural Nebraska, schools schedule officials directly.

right away. It might be hard to tell if he was drinking right before and then it got worse as the game went on but no way would I work with a partner like that. If it meant working a game by myself then fine.

also off topic but I want to say screw NBC and their tape delayed BS. Show the games live!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would stay the heck out of it. I didn't hire him. He is not my responsibility. Worry about yourself.

I'm not working the game with a drunk partner. Knowingly doing so is an invitation for a lawsuit if someone does get hurt. I might win such a suit but it will cost me to do so.

How is this any different from working with a partner who is otherwise incompetent? What would be the charges in such a lawsuit?

And how exactly do you determine that? Do you give him a breathalyzer test? Is he okay at .04, but not .08 or .10?
While I see the difficulty that such a situation poses for you as a partner, I seriously doubt that this is your call to make.
I advise leaving this up to the people who make the regulations for the officials in your area and handle the assignment process, even it that is the school AD.

The assignor knows the abilities of the partner but doesn't/can't know if the partner is drunk. The assignor can't do anything about it. And, if he did know, he pull the person instantly and he'd probably be kicked out of the association.

As for the lawsuit, there wouldn't be charges....it would be a civil lawsuit. Someone getting hurt and finding out the partner is drunk is all it would take for some to sue everyone that may have known. It doesn't have to be a sustainable claim. It would probably get thrown out but it would still cost a lot of money.

It is the policy of our association that a person not work after drinking. If they are detectably drunk, they're way over .04 and possibly way over .10. Those levels just impair reaction time but, for some people, may not appear drunk to others. I'd bet the person described above was well over the legal limit for driving (given the behavior described).

And it is absolutely my call to make when someone else's actions put me at risk. This is no different than not working in a gym because it has a big puddle of water in the middle of the court. It's not my water and I didn't put it there, but if I know about a risk and ignore it, I can be held liable.

If your association has such a policy, then you could contact someone in an authority position with your association, but I serious doubt that you can decide if the other official that he/she is allowed to officiate or not. That's not the call of a partner.

I have no idea what you do in your normal job, but from your statements above, I doubt that you have worked in a union hall. If you get assigned to a job, you go do it and you have no control about who is working around you. Those other people may be on medication, drugs, alcohol, etc., but there are supervisors and safety inspectors to deal with that.
I see this situation as similar.

Sorry about that guys. I stayed at happy hour a little too long. I promise to be sober for tonites big rivalry game!!

Nevada,

Aren't you a lawyer?

Wow, right out of Hoosiers. I don't grasp how partners couldn't detect he was tanked. I'd never let him hit the floor. As a friend or even fellow official, I'd tell him to leave and say he was ill. His career is over.

See, why do you have to talk about the Hoosiers? :D I'm sensitive about my home state.

Really happened to me, I was scheduled to do a Lacrosse game late afternoon and had a business lunch that started late. I had a beer with lunch and was worried it was on my breath. I stopped at CVS and was pressed for time, grabbed a small travel bottle of mouth wash and took a shot as I got back into car, problem was it was hand sanitizer...........WOW!!!! My mouth lit up like three mile island:o

I would definitely find a way to get him off the floor as soon as I detected some sort of on going impairment.

My only question to the OP, are you sure the problem was drinking and not some other health issue? A stroke can cause similar behaviors, as can certain other chemical imbalances such as very low blood sugar, and certain hormone imbalances that can develop quickly.

Regardless of the reason, the person should NOT be reffing and even in 2-whistle, should leave.

There is absolutely no reason for any official, of any sport, at any level to consume alcohol prior to working a game that day.

None................

If I am in the locker room and I detect alcohol on the breath of a partner, he/she isn't working. If he/she insists, then I tell him I am going to notify the game administrator, AD, coach and/or whomever else I can think of that the partner in quetion has alcohol on his/her breath.

If the guy/gal, is that dumb enough to try to work the game after that, then they deserve the subsequent forfeiture of their license.

Getting intoxicated is a willful act. This is different from having an incompetent referee - he/she can't help it.

If you overhear a referee saying that he's going to blow a few calls on purpose because he's got money on the game, do you not say anything because it's not your problem and you didn't pick the official?

The gambling referee is willfully ruining the integrity of the game. The drunk referee is willfully ruining the integrity of the game as well.

It is your responsibility, if you have any doubts about your partner's integrity in officiating a game, to raise them. If it's just an inkling of doubt and you feel comfortable - you can raise it with your partner to get an explanation or solution. If not, you can speak with someone who does have authority.

This argument doesn't even touch on the safety issue of having a drunk person on the court. Just because you don't have the authority to discipline him does not mean you don't report him to someone that does.

Dude, you can NOT be serious.

How do you know this guy was drunk? Did he perhaps react bad to medication, or maybe have an inner ear infection? Seems like his actions could be something other than public intoxication and NEVER working a game again.

Food for thought...but my guess he was drunk.

At first I thought maybe he had a stroke too. Doctor checked him out and he ended up back in the bleachers in street clothes for the 2nd half of the boys game. Which may or may not rule out serious medical concerns. Today I was working a JV tourney and one of the other guys working the tourney had worked the JV games last night. He said he had smelled a little liquor in the lockerroom (one of those, come to think of it maybe he'd been drinking, kind of thoughts). The 3rd guy working with us today is a vet around these parts, I just moved here last year and the other guy just started last year. I guess the ref in question in the OP had a problem with the bottle about 5 years ago, lost his license, got cleaned up and was making a comeback.

Bullcrap

Weeelllllll. I do know of a specific situation where in a playoff football game where an official had a heart attack. There happened to be an experienced official that was watching not intending on working went to a resturant before the game and had a couple of beers. Well he was asked to sub in for the official that had the heart attack. He told the crew his situation and even school officials and the accepted him to work. After all they asked him. I am not sure your position works for all situations.

So you are going to make someone not work because you "think" you smell something? What if the official denies it? What if you are wrong? I understand that you want to take a hard line here, but you better be right or able to prove it. Because is all you smell is something you think is alcohol and it is not alcohol, that might be a bigger problem. I agree I would be concerned, but not sure you can deny someone working just because of what you think.

Peace

Issue deserves reasoned discussion
 

There should be no booze on the breath, let alone drunkenness, by an official at a kid's game and it should not knowingly be tolerated by anyone who is serving as an official at a kid's game. The stakes are too high and the standard of nontolerance is too well established. Team members involved with alcohol face being kicked off the team, and that is an educational stand taken by institutions and leagues. The only reason we are there is to further the educaational programs of the institutions involved. NO we're not teachers. But we are placed in a position of responsibility and authority involving minors.

We owe it to the institutions for which we do these games not to violate that precept.

That's the easy part. The hard part, as it is in any honor system, is to enforce it. We are paid to make judgment calls in games, but not to impose moral judgment on co-workers. Involvement with alcohol by someone in authority at a kid's event is a grave offense.

Maybe boards ought to establish a protocol in which officials know going in that other officials have an obligation to speak up if there is a substance abuse issue.

And for Pete's sake, if you have a beer at lunch grab a tin of Altoids.

Right...

Tell you what... Why don't you invite Dave Gannaway out for a cold beer and a sandwich prior to your next game.

Anything is possible , but I don't think i'll work with a "partner" with his shirt on backwards ! ;)

It wouldn't be a business lunch. One beer at noon and a varsity game at 7:30 I don't have a problem with. That said, other than my post regarding lacrosse game, I can't remember having a glass of wine or beer as I don't imbibe during the day.If I did, I certainly would make sure I didn't have any alchohol on my breath, and have a habit of a breath mint before every game.

I think you're confusing this site with the United Airlines pilots forum.

Double bullcrap.

Who is this Dave guy? Is he a big partier? Sounds like a good time.

I do not know what you could be talking about? :p

Peace

Hahaha, hilarious- nice!

Double bullcrap?? Is your real name Spaulding?


I have a better idea, invite Gannaway to your one-beer, noon lunch and explain to him that you have a varsity game at 7:30 that night.

I'm sure he'll endorse that thinking.

Better yet, when you greet the coaches before the game, why don't you tell them that you enjoyed a cold beer at a noon lunch that day.

Works for all situations....... No game is that important to have this guy working.

The school official(s) that agreed to this should be fired.

The experienced official (with ZERO integrity) should lose his license.

Look harder..... nowhere do I mention the word "think". I am not going to take a hard line unless I detect alcohol.

Trust me..... he/she isn't working with me that night. One way or the other, the game is going to be worked with one less person than originally scheduled.

Why was he at fault here? He told everyone his situation. They ASKED him.

It'd be interesting to see this actually happen in your presence. It's easy to say you're going to do something, but when it actually happens people don't always backup their statements.

I think he has other issues

A little crisp today are we? I'm guessing there are or have been incidents close to home involving alcohol with you.

Regarding your zero tolerance, I went to Mass Sunday morning receiving the sacrament of Holy Communion which included Altar wine, I then (shudder) did a few kids games a few hours later.

I've heard Gannaway enjoys veal in a wine sauce or beer cheese soup, but you'd put a stop to that one.

If you're not involved in that cult down in Texas, you really should be on the United pilots forum, can you get me one of those spiffy captain's wings badges?

First..... who cares if they asked him. ( I do find it odd that he's got his gear with him)

He should have told them NO !!! The game could have gone on with 4.

Second.....

I hope I am never put in this situation. However, if I am, I guarantee you that I am handling things as previously stated.

FYI.... in case you haven't figured it out by now, I could care less what people think of me. I am who I am.

Straight forward, blunt, honest. You don't like it.... tough.;)

Classic, instead of answering why you would not tell the HC that you had a beer at lunch prior to his game, you try to insult me..... Weak.....


Then again....



Looks to me like you can't make up your mind.....

If it's no problem having a beer, why were you worried about the beer being on your breath?

Where do you get off saying he has zero integrity. I do not think that means what you think it means.

Just how do you think you're going to detect it? Do you have a breathalyzer in your bag? The smell can be meaningless, frankly, as many things can mimic the odor of alcohol. Even on the road it only provides probable cause for the cops to search further.

As much as I'm against working with a detectably "drunk" partner. I disagree with you here. A drink, or even two, a couple of hours before the game (as it seems was the case) will have largely worn off by the game time. I have no problem with this guy working. He even had the wherewithal to bring up the issue and leave it in the hands of those in charge.

Drunk is a broad term. For many people, a drink, or even two, would have little or no effect to wear off. They could have two beers on the way to the game and nobody would know the difference.

Most humans process ~1/2 ounce of pure alcohol per hour. 1 shot of liquor, 1 beer, 5 oz wine each have ~1/2 ounce of alcohol. So depending on what time the drink(s) were consumed in relation to tip off time there may be absolutely no alcohol remaining in the blood stream.

Source, My Wife a full time Alcohol & Drug Counselor.

Are you daft? Why would I tell anyone what I had for lunch?

Correct, there is no problem having a beer for lunch prior to a later game. The problem is having alcohol on your breath.

Why is that a problem for you to comprehend?


For the record, I rarely have an alcoholic drink at lunch as it makes me sleepy.

Question...........what's your time frame on having a beer prior to a game?

I'm sure that's not going to fly with Mr Carry Nations

That is why I said "detectably drunk". :rolleyes:

If someone else can tell they've been drinking, they've clearly had too much to be working a game.

They may have had too much to be working with a level less than "detectably drunk", but that is a different point.

Interesting and Timely Thread for Me......
 

Last Friday (VB) I worked with a very senior official. During pre-game/post-game we talked about a great many subjects. He asked me about my year, about my upcoming games/partners, etc.

When I told him about my Sunday, 11th/12th Grade Rec schedule, he told me to let him know if my partner had been drinking as it was "noticed" last time they were together. He said to watch and see if he's chewing a lot of gum.

Sunday roles around, 1230 game, my P is there....and he's chewing gum. The smell of alcohol was "barely noiticeable to me" and, IMO, didn't affect his game. If I wasn't told to be on the lookout for it, I wouldn't have noticed and would have thought the barely detectable odor was mouthwash.

I didn't say anything and don't intend to.

To be quite honest, this official is very senior to me and if there was an issue, I'm not quite sure what I personally would have done.

And that is why both my local football and basketball officiating associations have the exact same rule. No drinking the day of a game.

One drink smells the same as ten. And it doesn't matter if you have 1/2 a beer, if someone smells alcohol on your breath and wants to complain about your officiating, they will tell everybody that you were drunk.

And unfortunately, some mouthwashes, medications and sprays can leave an alcohol smell also. That means that if we do have to investigate a drinking complaint, that has to to be taken into account too. The benefit of the doubt always goes to the official.

Having said that, if a situation came up where an official was injured, etc. and needed to be replaced, using a non-impaired official who maybe had a drink earlier would be fine as long as everybody involved was notified and had no problems with it, Ya gotta use a little common sense.

I ALWAYS use a Listerine Strip before each game.

While I try to avoid getting up close and personal with folks, sometimes it happens, especially during Coaches/Captain's Meetings.

How do I detect it?

1)The industry that I work in requires me to be trained in this type of detection.

2) I am also a parent of former and current teen-agers.


I have never met anyone who has mistaken the odor.

Perhaps you just don't know the right diabetics. :rolleyes:

:confused:

Right from the NFHS Basketball Officials Manual.....

1.2.16 Cardinal Principles: The following items are specific goals and personal attributes that every good official will strive to attain and accepted procedures which should be followed:

m) Do not consume alcoholic beverages at any time on the day of and prior to a contest.

Pre-games are completely unnessary. 86 them and you can probably worm your way out of the breath odor deal. :p

I presume you're talking about a diabetic who has high blood sugar and sweet smelling breath?

I think it is hard NOT to smell booze on somebody that is noticeably inebriated but maybe this has to do with what my job was in college.

You can get an actual job picking up drunk chicks?!?!:eek:

Ahhhh, as mentioned in a prior post I knew this was close to home with you.

So, what's your take on Altar wine as I asked you before?

We have plenty of holiday tournaments with games starting at 9:00 am, do you have a cut off for the night before?

The funny thing is we're very close to agreeing here. I don't think it's a good idea to have a drink when you have a game the same day. I for one get tired with any wine or beer during the day no matter how small the quantity and rarely do partake. I'm certainly not arriving at game site with any hint of it on me.

I'm disagreeing with your absolute. Your judge and jury conclusions on suspected drinking by your partners is troublesome, and it appears you're carrying your job over into the officiating arena.

Of course you're entitled to believe as you wish.

The dead weight is a back breaker!

As far as being "close to home".... (you have no clue, assume as you wish) I was challenged as to how I could detect alcohol on someone's breeath.

As far as the Altar Wine.....(talk about apples and oranges, but I'll play anyway;)) I don't know where you go to mass, but I have yet to experience a Catholic Church dispensing wine via a 12oz glass for each person.... nice try...

9:00am start...... I would not have any reason to be drinking after midnight, but that's just me.

I'll leave you to your insults.......... have at it.......

While I understand your point.......
 

To you they may be unnecessary......to me, they are required and do have a smidge of value.

Goals, not absolutes; besides, this goes against your statement that you wouldn't drink after midnight the night before the game. If you go by this standard, if you have a game on Sunday, you can't drink after midnight Friday. There a lot of officials on this board for whom that would mean no alcohol from Thanksgiving until March.

You may think I'm misinterpreting the statement, and I would agree with you; but it's not an unreasonable reading of the quoted statement.

Dude, he said it was close to home, then you said your job requires you "to be trained in this type of detection." He may have no clue, but it sure as smoke seems he's write.

Without a breathalyzer, I still say you have no way of determining for sure whether the effects are due to alcohol or other sources. Would those behavioral symptoms preclude someone from working a game? Probably, but they don't mean an official's career should be over as you suggest; nor do they mean he has no integrity.

And frankly, if you can have a drink at 11:30 the night before a 9:00 am game, why can't someone have a beer at lunch on the day of a 7:00 pm game?

Because ASDF says so

"There is absolutely no reason for any official, of any sport, at any level to consume alcohol prior to working a game that day.

None................"


Dude, make up your mind.

Receiving communion in both species is not "consumption" of alcoholic beverages. First, the amount administered is generally less than a teaspoonful. Second, if you are a believer, you are not "consuming" an "alcoholic beverage."

Receiving "altar wine" is no more consuming alcoholic beverages than receiving the host during the sacrament of the Eucharist is having a sandwich.

Oh, and the difference is not just theological. When was the last time you saw a Catholic Church raided by the vice squad for distributing holy communion in both species without a liquor license?

You're assuming a very specific theology here. Not everyone who takes communion subscribes to transubstantiation.

And if the churches were selling the wine, you can bet they'd be raided.

I use the same thing I used when I flew: 8 hours "bottle to throttle" AND blood alcohol content < .04 (iirc) (no, I don't measure that, but I don't drink heavily the night before a morning game).

If I had two beers at 10:00 the night before and had a 9:00 AM game, sadly I'd be pooped. :)

You missed the point.

Reffing Rev,
Check your private messages.

same here with me

Some Are, Some Aren't, There's Room For All, It's A Big Planet ...
 

Jesus said unto them, “I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger. I am that bread of life.” (John 6:35, 48)

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/154aebb2e20dcb30

Still, there is alcohol in the body. As far as the stance of some that there should be none before a game at all, it is the same. A silly argument for sure, but technically the same.

I don't drink so this is not an issue for me personaly. I just think those that think 1-2 beers at lunch should disqualify someone from working a game at 6pm are really only preaching thier own opposition to drinking rather than having any tangible reason for opposing it. Now, that person who had 2 drinks at lunch probably shouldn't drive for a few hours after lunch but that is a different point.

This whole thread has gotten silly.

Bottom line, don't officiate drunk. And if a partner shows up obviously hammered, I'm guessing most of us are going to agree that a few questions should be asked/suggestions made regarding his/her going ahead with the game. It's doing nobody a favor - not you, not your drunk partner, not the kids - if you just let him/her wander his/her drunk self out there.

So, put me in the camp of saying something/doing something if someone is noticeably impaired...regardless of the reason.

Swing and a miss...

My post game doesn't get any better than a couple of Dunkels along with a dozen wings.

My tangible reason is professionalism, respect for the game, respect for others.

If a someone who works for me has an important evening presentation and he decides to make the choice of having a couple of beers for to wash down lunch that day, he's just shown me that he has no respect for me, his job, his colleagues and others involved.

He's also history.

Still waiting a list of states that endorse the practice.

I do understand your position on this. I do not personally drink much at all. I do not drink beer and going out to have a few is not my standard of a good time. But that being said, this does not relate to the topic very much. And just because you smell something does not mean someone has been drinking automatically. And it really is not just for you to make that decision. We cannot always take our professional standards into officiating. It does not always apply as many professions have very different standards.

Peace

Obvious impairment is usually a good sign of a lack of respect for the job. However, according to one of our previous posters:
So, someone who has a couple of beers for lunch that day most likely has no alcohol in their system at the time of the evening presentation, so there is no alcohol-related impairment.

What basis are you using for your judgement of a lack of professionalism of this employee, and therefore the basis of his firing?

+7

Precisely. It's individual responsibilty. He's force feeding his own moral code on others and as a 'partner' I would find this troublesome.

If someone (or you) has a couple drinks before bed and has an early presentation, do you hold the same standard? If not, you're be inconsistent. Alcohol disappates from the body the same whether awake or asleep. Having 1-2 at lunch before a 7:30 PM event is no different than having 1-2 around midnight, sleeping, then having and a 7:30 AM event. The only thing that is different is that the date changed.

1 drink at lunch, 5-8 hours before a presentation, does not equate to a lack of respect. In this economy, you might be able to get away with threatening to fire an employee for it, but I still wouldn't recommend it. Would you fire that same employee if he had a drink at 1:00 am the night before a 7:00 am presentation?

Now, if you've got an employee with a real problem and there's more to it than a drink at lunch, it's a different story.

I think we've all exhausted trying to make sense this to this guy.

Thankfully, none of us will have to work with him.

Or for him.

If the client or potential client sees the presenter in a bar at midnight, then sees him at 7:30am the next morning leading the presentation, I very seriously doubt the first thing going through his mind is alcohol dissipation rates.

Same thing goes for a coach, athletic director, principal, father of a player, school administrator, etc.....

If any (or all) sees said official walk into the arena/gym at 6:00pm for a 7:30pm game, and they realize it is the same official who was having a beer or two at 12:00 noon, it's all over the place in no time.

Not a lot of good can come of the situation, regardless of the outcome.

Anyone putting themselves in this situation won't be working for me and shouldn't be (my opinion) officiating.

I wonder why nobody seems eager to contact their state athletic association office for their opinion on the matter.:rolleyes:

Because it's not worth wasting their time on stuff like this. You're the one who finds it to be such an integrity issue 7 hours before the game; have you contacted your state?

And most people I know wouldn't think twice about having seen a guy drinking a beer at lunch and then officiating that night.

What do you do if the game official, AD, assignor says he's fit to work the game? Do you not work it, since you're not going to work with someone who has drank before the game?

Fixed it for you.

He could walk in holding a beer for all I care. What is asdf going to do if everyone in the place says that official is going to work the game?

I think I need a drink now.

Nice!

Honestly I do not care what they thing on something that has never happened. Why would I call to get their opinion on something I have never seen and will likely not see? Some things will just have to happen for me to start asking for an opinion and action I am sure would happen long before this issue got to the state office.

Peace