block/charge by rule
 

Our situation the other night had A1 throwing the ball on an inbounds in the backcourt. He threw the ball in the air and while in the air A2 caught the ball with B1 gaining legal guarding position and before A2 landed he crashed into B1. My question comes with do you have to give time and distance when player A2 left the floor without the ball. Or when he gains possession in the air you no longer have to give time and distance?

I would have a Block on B1. A2 is entitled to return to the floor even though B1 had LGP which again was after A2 left the floor.

Time and distance are not required, by rule, when guarding the player with the ball. How long he had had the ball isn't relevant.

What is relevant and unclear, however, is whether B1 got to his spot prior to A2 going airborne. Once A2 is airborne, B1 cannot gain LGP within the airborne path of A2.

Whether he has the ball or not, he has to have a place to land.

Assuming B1 wasn't in his spot before A2 jumped to catch the ball, you're right. That's not clear from the OP.

Correction: Whether he has the ball or not, defender can't move into his landing spot while the player is airborne.

Right. I'm assuming the defender was there in time due to the OP questioning whether "time and distance" are required. I could be wrong, however. It would be the 2nd time today.

The Hudson River ...
 

Captain Chesley B. "Sully" Sullenberger didn't have a ball, but he found a place to land.

The case book under Rule 10.6.1 talks about this situation. It has a charge if B1 gains legal guarding position before A2 leaves the floor. Or, if he moves into legal guarding position while A2 is in the air then A2 lands and crashes. I assume by the case book that time and distance are not required because A2 gains possession of the ball in the air. I just can't find it anywhere that time and distance are required. The fact that A2 is in the air makes no bearing on time and distance once he gains player control. Can any of you find where this would be said under the rules?

Yep, 4-23-4
It's this exact situation.

This is not possible. How you gain LGP on someone who is airborne?

By facing them with two feet on the floor AND by giving them space to land.

If A2 landed on B2, then it's a block. IF A2 landed and THEN crashed into B2, it's a charge.

Which means LGP isn't established until A2 is no longer airborne.

Disagree.

LGP can be obtained on an airborne player. But, the "spots" on the court where such a position in LGP are fewer than when the player is not airborne.

I agree with Bob: the specification of how to obtain LGP does not require that the opponent be in contact with the court.

We're discussing a specific play here. In this specific play it doesn't matter where the defender is when A1 is airborne...it matters where the defender is when A1 lands. B1 can dance an Irish jig while A1 is airborne.

While he can't gain LGP within the flight path of A1, he can certainly gain LGP one inch beyond that path.

The OP still hasn't cleared up whether B1 established LGP prior to A2 leaving the floor, or after.

Which is why I'm drawing out this conversation:

How did B1 gain LGP while A2 was airborne if A2 crashed into B1 before landing?

Last night we had a play where the home coach wasn't pleased with the call, but I know it was the right one.

B22 goes up for a rebound. He skies, get the ball, and A4 slides just enough under him so when B22 lands he hits A4's leg (which is outside his torso) and stumbles to the floor. I immediately call a foul on A4. Coach asked how it was a foul after I reported and went tableside. Simple reply: "He's gotta let him land there."

I agree, which is why I asked the question initially. I'm basing the ambiguity on the fact that he was asking about time and distance.

Agreed about "time and distance" not being a factor here.

But in this specific play we don't know for sure if defender has LGP until airborne player either crashes before landing or lands before crashing.

In that specific example, he didn't.

That wasn't what I was responding to.

The thread also included comments about landing and then crashing, and you said it was impossible to establish LGP until landing. My response is specifically to that statement.

What B1 was doing while A2 is airborne is irrelevent. It's the fact that B1 had LGP when A2 landed that is relevent. That's basically my point.

The OP stated that B1 established LGP while A2 was airborne but that A2 crashed into B1 before landing. With all the back-and-forth, that very important snippet of the post was not addressed.

Actually, the very first two responses in thread addressed it.

I'm more prone to read msg #7. :p

LMAO

I still haven't found out whether I was wrong, though. :D

Thanks for all the thoughts. My big concern was with time and distance. I do know that if LGP was established before A2 left the floor then caught the ball it will be a charge. If A2 lands then crashes into B1 who has established LGP then it is also a charge. The key here is gaining LGP to enforce the block charge call. I didn't know if because A2 was in the air without the ball he had the same stipulations as in a time and distance situation with someone moving without the ball. My interpretation through this process and the rule book has led me to when A2 catches the ball he is now under the same rules as a player in control of the ball and time and distance are not required.

So was I right in assuming, with your play, that B1 had established LGP prior to A2 becoming airborne?

You're right, Time and Distance aren't relevant, even if he leaves the floor without the ball, once A2 makes the catch.

Not clear until he clarifies this:

Reads like B1 was still moving to get LGP when A2 was airborne. Now, if he were to amend to read: ...and while in the air A2 caught the ball with B1 having gained legal guarding position prior to A2 leaving his feet...

You are correct.

The only problem with that is that B1's position, at the time A1 jumped, may not have been LGP (not enough time/distance given the status of A1 and the ball at that moment) but only became so when A1 subsequently caught the ball. When A1 catches the ball, a postion taken by a defender that was would have been too late to have LGP on a player without the ball can become LGP. As long as B1 was simply in the spot before A1 jumps or allows room for A1 to land if the got to the spot after A1 jumped.