Traveling Help!?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree. If a player has a foot in the air, I consider them to be moving. Standing on one foot is not a steady-state situation. They may be moving slowly, but they're still moving.

Agreed. Movement is not the key. The key is when the second foot touches the floor. Until it does, there is no pivot foot.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I'm saying if you stopped a dribble, established a pivot foot, you could not jump off of that pivot foot and land on two feet, that would be travelling. In the case of a jump stop since the player is moving, the foot that they jump off of is not considered to be the pivot foot - there is no pivot foot in that case.

So they can go left, right, left? Since their is no pivot foot in that case?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CDurham

So they can go left, right, left? Since their is no pivot foot in that case?

Nope. In that case the left foot is determined to be the pivot foot as soon as the right foot hit the ground. Therefore, when the left foot hits the ground again it is traveling.

If the ball is gathered or caught with one foot on the ground, that foot is always the pivot foot EXCEPT for the one clearly defined exception which is the jump stop, in which case there isn't a pivot foot.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Nope. In that case the left foot is determined to be the pivot foot as soon as the right foot hit the ground. Therefore, when the left foot hits the ground again it is traveling.

If the ball is gathered or caught with one foot on the ground, that foot is always the pivot foot EXCEPT for the one clearly defined exception which is the jump stop, in which case there isn't a pivot foot.

Exactly..this is all laid out in 4-44, you just have to spend some time with it visualizing each different type of play.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Exactly..this is all laid out in 4-44, you just have to spend some time with it visualizing each different type of play.

Your right. I have a game tonight and that is all I've been doing today is acting out situations

[shutupneff]

It should also be noted that this whole lands-on-two-feet-no-pivot-foot scenario is only the case if the player still has a foot on the ground when the final dribble returns to his/her hands. If they're already airborne when the dribble is terminated, they can land on either foot first, with that foot being the pivot, or if both feet land at the same time, either may be the pivot. The latter scenario is often followed by the player stepping across with one foot and jumping of the non-pivot foot for a shot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

It should also be noted that this whole lands-on-two-feet-no-pivot-foot scenario is only the case if the player still has a foot on the ground when the final dribble returns to his/her hands. If they're already airborne when the dribble is terminated, they can land on either foot first, with that foot being the pivot, or if both feet land at the same time, either may be the pivot. The latter scenario is often followed by the player stepping across with one foot and jumping of the non-pivot foot for a shot.

The most common scenario is an airborne player gathering a dribble (or catching a pass) and jumping off the first foot that hits the floor, landing on both simultaneously.

[jdw3018]

I've come to a different conclusion than my earlier posts based on the discussion here and re-reading 4-44-2...I'm now in complete agreement with Camron and others. I was focused on the 'moving' comment. However, no pivot foot is established until the second foot touches and therefore, regardless of how long a player who has caught the ball is on one foot he may still jump off that foot and land on both simultaneously.

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. I love learning new things here.

[jdw3018]

New scenario getting a lot of debate among some of my friends:

A1 receives the ball near the block, dribbles once, and establishes his left foot as the pivot foot. In making a move to score, A1 takes a large jump off of the left foot into the lane, landing on his right foot then jumping again off it and scoring before the either foot touches the ground.

Legal?

[Adam]

What rule would make this illegal?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

What rule would make this illegal?

Well, this is the source of the debate:

4-44-3...After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
(a) The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released...
(b) If the player jumps neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released....

Those arguing legal cite a., those arguing illegal cite b. No definition of "jumps" exists in the book. Some say that the move must be a 'step' where the right foot touches before the left leaves the court. Others argue that once both feet are off the ground it is a jump.

Of course, that says that what most of us view as a legal layup would be traveling as when running both feet are off the court at the same time. I can also see the argument in an exaggerated move that most of us would truly look at like a jump rather than a step-through or running move, that those arguing (b) have merit.

[Adam]

Right, I figured that was the debate. It's a judgment call, IMO, whether he "jumps" or "steps."

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Some say that the move must be a 'step' where the right foot touches before the left leaves the court.

I like this explanation - if this doesn't happen it is at least a hop which to me is closer to a jump than it is to a step. Plus this move is uglier than all get out. Travel

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I like this explanation - if this doesn't happen it is at least a hop which to me is closer to a jump than it is to a step. Plus this move is uglier than all get out. Travel

Have you ever seen a player run and not be momentarily airborne between steps? This explanation doesn't work, IMO.

[shutupneff]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The most common scenario is an airborne player gathering a dribble (or catching a pass) and jumping off the first foot that hits the floor, landing on both simultaneously.

That's actually pretty rare for my usual level of officiating (high school aged rec league), so I assumed it's also pretty rare at the higher levels without thinking. I've had a lot of players complain that I don't call a travel whenever someone fails to land with both feet simultaneously on a jump stop. It's even been worse than "3 IN THE KEY!!!" this season.