The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Correctable Error (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56935-correctable-error.html)

tjones1 Fri Feb 05, 2010 01:27am

Correctable Error
 
Well for the first time I had a correctable error.... uhhhg.

Home team has the ball in the front court. A21 is fouled. Board shows 5 fouls on visiting team.

Ball is put back in play and I take a glance up at the board...it goes from 5 to 7 - crap! Home team is working their offense and HC is saying we should be shooting...home team scores. I kill it and go to the table.

Get it all sorted out and confirm that indeed it was the 7th team foul.

We send A21 to the line to shoot 1&1 with the lane cleared. Makes first, missed second.

V got the ball for spot throw-in on the endline and we continued from there...

LocDog249 Fri Feb 05, 2010 02:03am

After 11 years I had my first one ever too. I blame it on the oldest table staff being about 15, and them putting an "extra" foul up 30 seconds after it occurred. On the foul in question, they put it up as the 6th, then after putting ball in play, and a little while later, it goes to 7 team fouls.

Nevadaref Fri Feb 05, 2010 05:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 658671)
Well for the first time I had a correctable error.... uhhhg.

Home team has the ball in the front court. A21 is fouled. Board shows 5 fouls on visiting team.

Ball is put back in play and I take a glance up at the board...it goes from 5 to 7 - crap! Home team is working their offense and HC is saying we should be shooting...home team scores. I kill it and go to the table.

Get it all sorted out and confirm that indeed it was the 7th team foul.

We send A21 to the line to shoot 1&1 with the lane cleared. Makes first, missed second.

V got the ball for spot throw-in on the endline and we continued from there...

Was that your POI? I think that you made one small mistake. ;)

Adam Fri Feb 05, 2010 09:45am

Just a thought, but couldn't you have stopped it when you saw it go from 5 to 7? I'm assuming the offense wasn't in the process of actually scoring.

jdw3018 Fri Feb 05, 2010 09:47am

In addition to what Nevada said, how long was there between you noticing the foul count at 7 and the home team scoring? Was home in the midst of action going for a score when you saw it or were they just working the ball?

I'm just wondering if there would have been an appropriate to kill the clock before the score. Would have allowed you to shoot the FTs with everyone on the lane and eliminated the double opportunity to score from the foul.

jdw3018 Fri Feb 05, 2010 09:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 658721)
Just a thought, but couldn't you have stopped it when you saw it go from 5 to 7? I'm assuming the offense wasn't in the process of actually scoring.

You use so many less words than me. Something to work on. For me. In my postings. Because sometimes in trying to explain things I use too many words. And then my meaning isn't clear. Look, a dinosaur! :D

tjones1 Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 658675)
Was that your POI? I think that you made one small mistake. ;)

POI was the made bucket... V was allowed to run the endline but they didn't... as I was the administering official. Good catch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 658721)
Just a thought, but couldn't you have stopped it when you saw it go from 5 to 7? I'm assuming the offense wasn't in the process of actually scoring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 658722)
In addition to what Nevada said, how long was there between you noticing the foul count at 7 and the home team scoring? Was home in the midst of action going for a score when you saw it or were they just working the ball?

I'm just wondering if there would have been an appropriate to kill the clock before the score. Would have allowed you to shoot the FTs with everyone on the lane and eliminated the double opportunity to score from the foul.

Well, the throw-in spot was on the endline... they made a pass to the block.

If the ball had already been made live and inbounded; I don't think you could have resumed with the free throws and with players in the lane.

Adam Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 658821)
POI was the made bucket... V was allowed to run the endline but they didn't... as I was the administering official. Good catch.





Well, the throw-in spot was on the endline... they made a pass to the block.

If the ball had already been made live and inbounded; I don't think you could have resumed with the free throws and with players in the lane.

Sure you could have, no change of possession had occurred. Line 'em up and shoot. It looks, though, like A scored pretty quickly after you noticed the fouls went up. That'll teach Bs coach to pipe up in that situation, too.

As Bob has said, the incentive seems to be to give everyone an interest in getting it right the first time; because it could end up hurting anyone depending on how it goes down.

PIAA REF Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:43pm

You should have just shot the 1-1 live. (players on lane) Since their has been no change of possession you don't need to shoot with the lane cleared. I believe case book 2.10.1 E will help you. The case book is about what to do when possession changes and doesn't. In your case you killed the play with the team entitled to the free throws still in possession. So you would just shoot the free-throws like you would normally.

Jurassic Referee Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF (Post 658845)
You should have just shot the 1-1 live. (players on lane) Since their has been no change of possession you don't need to shoot with the lane cleared. I believe case book 2.10.1 E will help you. The case book is about what to do when possession changes and doesn't. In your case you killed the play with the team entitled to the free throws still in possession. So you would just shoot the free-throws like you would normally.

You may want to read rule 8-1-3. I believe that will help you because you are wrong.:) The lanes are cleared.

Adam Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF (Post 658845)
You should have just shot the 1-1 live. (players on lane) Since their has been no change of possession you don't need to shoot with the lane cleared. I believe case book 2.10.1 E will help you. The case book is about what to do when possession changes and doesn't. In your case you killed the play with the team entitled to the free throws still in possession. So you would just shoot the free-throws like you would normally.

Hmmm. A gets a throwin and makes a basket. B is entitled to a throw in now. No change of possession?

PIAA REF Fri Feb 05, 2010 01:18pm

He said that he killed the play with the ball still in A's possession after the throw-in for the foul, IF that is the case you shoot the free-throws live. This would be under rule 2-10-6 (this is last yrs book) when correcting merited free throws: if there has been no change in team possession when the error was recognized. The play SHALL resume after free-throw attempts.

PIAA REF Fri Feb 05, 2010 01:21pm

Never Mind
 
I didn't catch the home team scores comment.

Bucket counts, clear line, shoot 1-1, player can run endline.

Jurassic Referee Fri Feb 05, 2010 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF (Post 658870)
He said that he killed the play with the ball still in A's possession after the throw-in for the foul, IF that is the case you shoot the free-throws live. This would be under rule 2-10-6 (this is last yrs book) when correcting merited free throws: if there has been no change in team possession when the error was recognized. The play SHALL resume after free-throw attempts.

And you're still wrong.

Read rule 9-1-3--"If the ball is to become dead when the last free throw for a specific penalty is not successful, players shall not occupy any spaces along the free-throw lane."

It's that simple.

RIF

Raymond Fri Feb 05, 2010 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF (Post 658870)
He said that he killed the play with the ball still in A's possession after the throw-in for the foul, IF that is the case you shoot the free-throws live. This would be under rule 2-10-6 (this is last yrs book) when correcting merited free throws: if there has been no change in team possession when the error was recognized. The play SHALL resume after free-throw attempts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 658878)
And you're still wrong.

Read rule 9-1-3--"If the ball is to become dead when the last free throw for a specific penalty is not successful, players shall not occupy any spaces along the free-throw lane."

It's that simple.

RIF

If Team A had maintained possession are you saying you are going to shoot the free throws then give the ball back to A?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 658841)
Sure you could have, no change of possession had occurred. Line 'em up and shoot. It looks, though, like A scored pretty quickly after you noticed the fouls went up. That'll teach Bs coach to pipe up in that situation, too.

As Bob has said, the incentive seems to be to give everyone an interest in getting it right the first time; because it could end up hurting anyone depending on how it goes down.

I call bullcrap on that line of thinking every time. It's just as likely (actually more likely) that A's HC and/or scorekeeper purposely waited for play to resume before notifying the officials.

All game long we want coaches to coach and let us officiate but now all of a sudden a coach is supposed to perform Quality Control for the table and officiating crew.

This particular rule is just plain and simply a bad rule (JAR, where are you when I need you?) Needs to be changed so that if the offended team scores, the timeframe for the CE expires. Right now the offended team's HC has no incentive to identify the error until after his team has had a chance to score extra points.

jdw3018 Fri Feb 05, 2010 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 658878)
And you're still wrong.

Read rule 9-1-3--"If the ball is to become dead when the last free throw for a specific penalty is not successful, players shall not occupy any spaces along the free-throw lane."

It's that simple.

RIF

I don't think PIAA was arguing that, he was mistakenly (as you can see from his last post he realizes it) assuming the play was dead when A was in possession of the ball. Had that been the case, then he would be correct that the game would be resumed with the free throws, not at the POI.

Jurassic Referee Fri Feb 05, 2010 01:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 658882)
I don't think PIAA was arguing that, he was mistakenly (as you can see from his last post he realizes it) assuming the play was dead when A was in possession of the ball. Had that been the case, then he would be correct that the game would be resumed with the free throws, not at the POI.

Yup.

gslefeb Fri Feb 05, 2010 02:02pm

If you knew that it should have been 1-1
 
Could you have waited until B1 had the ball to start the throw in, to check with the table? Therefore, no correctable error and play on?

refguy Fri Feb 05, 2010 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gslefeb (Post 658897)
Could you have waited until B1 had the ball to start the throw in, to check with the table? Therefore, no correctable error and play on?

Interesting way to do it. That way they don't get the extra point(s).
If they shoot and miss, then kill it and put em on the line.

eg-italy Fri Feb 05, 2010 04:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 658881)
This particular rule is just plain and simply a bad rule (JAR, where are you when I need you?) Needs to be changed so that if the offended team scores, the timeframe for the CE expires. Right now the offended team's HC has no incentive to identify the error until after his team has had a chance to score extra points.

That's exactly how they modified in FIBA: if the team who should have shot the FT scores, the error is ignored and play resumes with an endline throw-in.
Quote:

44.3.2 Failure to award a merited free throw(s).
If there has been no change in possession of the ball since the error was made, the game shall be resumed after correction of the error as after any normal free throw.
If the same team scores after having been erroneously awarded possession of the ball for a throw-in, the error shall be disregarded.
Otherwise, the error is corrected by shooting the free throws with lane cleared and play is resumed from the point of interruption (I know, there's no POI rule in FIBA, but that's the concept).

Ciao

Raymond Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy (Post 658934)
That's exactly how they modified in FIBA: if the team who should have shot the FT scores, the error is ignored and play resumes with an endline throw-in.

Otherwise, the error is corrected by shooting the free throws with lane cleared and play is resumed from the point of interruption (I know, there's no POI rule in FIBA, but that's the concept).

Ciao

Good. FIBA has this one right.

Nevadaref Sun Feb 07, 2010 03:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by refguy (Post 658899)
Interesting way to do it. That way they don't get the extra point(s).

Intentionally waiting when you know about the error prior to the ball becoming live would be cheating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by refguy (Post 658899)
If they shoot and miss, then kill it and put em on the line.

Depends upon which team has the arrow in its favor because the POI for the whistle in the middle of play for the CE following a missed try prior to a rebound would be the AP arrow.
Team A --> no change of team possession, line everyone up and administer the 1-1.
Team B --> opposing team is now due a throw-in, so that's a change of team possession. 1-1 with lane cleared and then resume at POI, which is the AP throw-in for Team B.

In other words, your solution doesn't help the situation. It could just make it worse.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1