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-   -   Illegal Screen or Not? I'm Thinking Yes... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56885-illegal-screen-not-im-thinking-yes.html)

bas2456 Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:23pm

Illegal Screen or Not? I'm Thinking Yes...
 
A1 is driving down the lane. A2 wants to prevent help defense from coming over, and "boxes out" the girl who's guarding her so that she can't help on defense.

I don't think 4-40-6 applies here, hence I can't think of any reason this isn't an illegal screen.

What say you?

Raymond Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:41pm

You haven't provided enough information. Was there contact? Did A2 get to each particular spot on the floor before the defender?

bas2456 Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:46pm

A2 was backing B2 away from the lane.

Yes there was contact, think of it as A2 boxing B2 away from the lane, but A1 hadn't even shot the ball yet.

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:15am

If contact is made while A2 is moving in this particular play, it's a foul. If she moves and gets to the spot first, it's nothing.

Camron Rust Wed Feb 03, 2010 03:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 657968)
If contact is made while A2 is moving in this particular play, it's a foul. If she moves and gets to the spot first, it's nothing.

...while also accounting for time and distance that may be required in getting to the spot due to the speed of B2.

mbyron Wed Feb 03, 2010 07:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 657963)
A2 was backing B2 away from the lane.

Yes there was contact, think of it as A2 boxing B2 away from the lane, but A1 hadn't even shot the ball yet.

You're using 'boxing out' as if you were a coach. Any contact that moves a player off her spot is a foul. If there was team control at the time of the foul, it's a team control foul (when committed by a member of that team); otherwise, it's a common foul.

bob jenkins Wed Feb 03, 2010 09:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 657963)
A2 was backing B2 away from the lane.

Yes there was contact, think of it as A2 boxing B2 away from the lane, but A1 hadn't even shot the ball yet.

And was B2 trying to make a defensive play on A1?

You're right that the screening rules apply -- just make sure the criteria for a foul are met.

Red_Killian Wed Feb 03, 2010 09:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 657963)
A2 was backing B2 away from the lane.

Yes there was contact, think of it as A2 boxing B2 away from the lane, but A1 hadn't even shot the ball yet.

"Boxing out" as you describe it is displacement. Displacement is a foul whether it's on a rebound or not. B2 has a right to his/her spot on the floor. I've got a foul on A2, team control - push or block take your pick.

mcdanrd Wed Feb 03, 2010 09:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Killian (Post 658034)
"Boxing out" as you describe it is displacement. Displacement is a foul whether it's on a rebound or not. B2 has a right to his/her spot on the floor. I've got a foul on A2, team control - push or block take your pick.

However, A2 also has a right to his/her spot on the floor. If it's a legal "box out" with no displacement, I've got nothing. It always amazes me when I call a foul on a player for displacement on a "box out" that the coach will complain and say "he/she was just boxing out."

TimTaylor Wed Feb 03, 2010 09:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Killian (Post 658034)
"Boxing out" as you describe it is displacement. Displacement is a foul whether it's on a rebound or not. B2 has a right to his/her spot on the floor. I've got a foul on A2, team control - push or block take your pick.

I agree. If A2 displaces B2 as described, it's a foul.

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2010 09:49am

"Boxing out" falls under screening rules, every time. That's what it is. There are no "box out" rules; well, maybe in hockey, but that's another thread.

Red_Killian Wed Feb 03, 2010 09:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdanrd (Post 658038)
However, A2 also has a right to his/her spot on the floor. If it's a legal "box out" with no displacement, I've got nothing. It always amazes me when I call a foul on a player for displacement on a "box out" that the coach will complain and say "he/she was just boxing out."

True but the OP says A2 was backing B2 away from the lane, so in this case it's pretty clear there was displacement.

Raymond Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 657963)
A2 was backing B2 away from the lane.

Yes there was contact, think of it as A2 boxing B2 away from the lane, but A1 hadn't even shot the ball yet.

Do you mean A2 was displacing B2?

rwest Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:18am

Not necessarily
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Killian (Post 658045)
True but the OP says A2 was backing B2 away from the lane, so in this case it's pretty clear there was displacement.

Sometimes when backing out or boxing out a player, the other player gives ground without really any contact. This is usually at the lower skill levels, but it still happens. If the contact causes them to move you have a foul, but if the player gives ground on his/her own do to incidental contact then you have nothing. The player should plant his/her feet and make the contact displace them. Then you have a foul!

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 658061)
Sometimes when backing out or boxing out a player, the other player gives ground without really any contact. This is usually at the lower skill levels, but it still happens. If the contact causes them to move you have a foul, but if the player gives ground on his/her own do to incidental contact then you have nothing. The player should plant his/her feet and make the contact displace them. Then you have a foul!

Stepping backwards to prevent yourself from falling is not giving ground. I just want to clarify that a player does not need to plant the feet and fall down in order to draw a foul here.

rwest Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:43pm

I agree
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 658096)
Stepping backwards to prevent yourself from falling is not giving ground. I just want to clarify that a player does not need to plant the feet and fall down in order to draw a foul here.

However, if they plant their feet and are displaced it is definitely a foul. If a player gives ground on their own with little contact, I've got nothing. Remember, not all contact is a foul.

We have to judge advantage/disadvantage. If the defender chooses to move when there is incidental contact, then I've got nothing. I see this more frequently at the lower level where the offensive player moves backwards and the defender moves her feet with them. Very little if any contact. The contact didn't displace the player. The defender chose to move backwards on their own. I didn't mean to imply that they have to plant their feet to get the foul, just that if they are moving backward it now becomes a judgement call whether the contact was incidental or not. But that's what we get paid for.

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:57pm

Agreed, it's the same as a "moving screen." If the screener is moving, but the defender voluntarily gets out of the way or moves wider to go around it, it's nothing.

DLH17 Wed Feb 03, 2010 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 658110)
Agreed, it's the same as a "moving screen." If the screener is moving, but the defender voluntarily gets out of the way or moves wider to go around it, it's nothing.

Could this physical act being discussed also be same/similar to the commom scenario of player A1 "sealing" player B1 from a loose ball that is traveling towards OOB?

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2010 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLH17 (Post 658189)
Could this physical act being discussed also be same/similar to the commom scenario of player A1 "sealing" player B1 from a loose ball that is traveling towards OOB?

Exactly. If the "sealing" player gets to the spot first, it's legal. If they create contact while moving and displace or impede the opponent, it's a foul.

bob jenkins Wed Feb 03, 2010 05:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 658197)
Exactly. If the "sealing" player gets to the spot first, it's legal. If they create contact while moving and displace or impede the opponent, it's a foul.


Unless, of course, they are moving in the same path and direction -- which is what I judge 99% of the time.

bas2456 Wed Feb 03, 2010 05:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 658197)
Exactly. If the "sealing" player gets to the spot first, it's legal. If they create contact while moving and displace or impede the opponent, it's a foul.

This is the key word I was looking for in the OP. If A2 is impeding B1 from coming to play defense on A1, we would have a foul. Did I interpret that right?

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2010 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 658209)
Unless, of course, they are moving in the same path and direction -- which is what I judge 99% of the time.

Good point, I was thinking of lateral movement by the "sealer." Normally, however, the sealer is either moving slowly with the opponent or gets to the spot in time.

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2010 05:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 658210)
This is the key word I was looking for in the OP. If A2 is impeding B1 from coming to play defense on A1, we would have a foul. Did I interpret that right?

Yes, if the impediment is caused by illegal contact for which A2 is responsible.


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