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-   -   We kicked it. Did I do enough? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56799-we-kicked-did-i-do-enough.html)

referee99 Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:33pm

We kicked it. Did I do enough?
 
GV. 3rd quarter. I'm Lead. Team A has a try from the opposite side of the floor from me.
Ball hits up top (I'm eyeing rebounding action) caroms, tip, bat, scramble, bat (last bat by A1 knocks ball into back court. A2 recovers ball in back court. Partner calls backcourt violation.

I get to my partner. "Partner, we had a try... did Team A have team control after the try?" He replies, "Yes, they had team control." Me, "you're sure?" Him, "yes".

I go to the throw-in spot and bounce the ball to the thrower.

After the game I tell him I think we kicked that one. He says that yeah, he guesses we did.

If it was a critical moment in the game, I would have probably slowed him down more, maybe review the sequence of events and try to get the correct outcome.

Any advice on language/techniques to get partner amenable to changing? Seems that in the moment he was committed to his call, and not eager to analyze.

Skarecrow Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:37pm

last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....

Mark Padgett Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:41pm

You could have asked your partner if any player on team A held or dribbled the ball after the try and before it was batted into the backcourt. That would have given both of you a definitive answer.

Indianaref Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarecrow (Post 656687)
last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....

Wrong. No team control, no violation.

jdw3018 Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarecrow (Post 656687)
last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....

But what else do you have to have? Team control. It doesn't sound as if there was team control.

jdw3018 Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:43pm

In the couple times where establishment of TC is a factor, I don't ask if there's team control - I ask "Did a player from A control the ball?"

This requires the other official to determine if any specific player controlled the ball.

just another ref Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:45pm

"Partner, she never came close to controlling the ball, she only batted it. Are you sure you're happy with the call?"

fullor30 Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by referee99 (Post 656684)
GV. 3rd quarter. I'm Lead. Team A has a try from the opposite side of the floor from me.
Ball hits up top (I'm eyeing rebounding action) caroms, tip, bat, scramble, bat (last bat by A1 knocks ball into back court. A2 recovers ball in back court. Partner calls backcourt violation.

I get to my partner. "Partner, we had a try... did Team A have team control after the try?" He replies, "Yes, they had team control." Me, "you're sure?" Him, "yes".

I go to the throw-in spot and bounce the ball to the thrower.

After the game I tell him I think we kicked that one. He says that yeah, he guesses we did.

If it was a critical moment in the game, I would have probably slowed him down more, maybe review the sequence of events and try to get the correct outcome.

Any advice on language/techniques to get partner amenable to changing? Seems that in the moment he was committed to his call, and not eager to analyze.

Tough one, I've been that guy not eager to analyze, I've learned to slow down and digest the information offered. Sounds like you did as well as you could have.

SAK Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:53pm

You know the call was kicked. That is not the point of this post. I think that you did about all that you can do. You asked your partner if he was sure and you were trying to seek clarification.

jeffpea Fri Jan 29, 2010 01:00pm

"partner, when did Team A establish/regain team control?"....
"team control requires actual possesion of the ball or control of the ball, i.e. dribbling...did any player on Team have possession? did any player control the ball while dribbling? this is a critical point in the game...are you SURE that Team A had control?"

if your partner does not change his call, then it is a judgement call that may or may not come back to haunt him.

justacoach Fri Jan 29, 2010 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarecrow (Post 656687)
last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....

Missing one critical and required component:
NO TEAM CONTROL established after try

keep readng for further reinforcement of this concept...

referee99 Fri Jan 29, 2010 01:08pm

I like this...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffpea (Post 656706)
"partner, when did Team A establish/regain team control?"....

if your partner does not change his call, then it is a judgement call that may or may not come back to haunt him.

... as it forces them to think of controlling action. Puts onus on them to back up their call.

referee99 Fri Jan 29, 2010 01:16pm

I like this...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 656697)
"Partner, she never came close to controlling the ball, she only batted it. Are you sure you're happy with the call?"

... because you are stating your objection to the call but without saying "you are wrong".

Could also go with a mixture (with JeffPea) of
"Partner, I never saw them REGAIN team control, only batting. When did you see them hold or dribble?"

representing Fri Jan 29, 2010 01:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianaref (Post 656692)
Wrong. No team control, no violation.

Just a thought... if the ball was batted in an attempt to get the ball away from the defense or to a teammate, wouldn't that be considered a controlled pass?

We had this happen in my Boys Freshmen game on Wednesday. I'm trail, my partner's lead. A is offense, B is defense. Shot goes up, misses, players trying to rebound and eventually the ball gets to the floor and someone just batted the ball to the backcourt. I couldn't see who it was, as it was outside the lane opposite to me where my partner would have had the better view. Ball goes almost to the opposite endline and the A1 regained possession. Not having any clue if there was any absolute team control I didn't blow anything and left that up to my partner to call. He blew his whistle and called backcourt. We got together and I asked him what he saw as I couldn't see anything. He said that the ball was on the ground and during the "fight for the ball" A2 pushed the ball into the back court with one hand. I told him good call, as it was with intent to get it away from the opponents and to a teammate.

bob jenkins Fri Jan 29, 2010 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 656729)
Just a thought... if the ball was batted in an attempt to get the ball away from the defense or to a teammate, wouldn't that be considered a controlled pass?

No.

Adam Fri Jan 29, 2010 02:26pm

Rep, look in the rule book under player control. Rule is 4-12. Your partner did not make a good call.

Jurassic Referee Fri Jan 29, 2010 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 656729)
1)Just a thought... if the ball was batted in an attempt to get the ball away from the defense or to a teammate, wouldn't that be considered a controlled pass?

2) We had this happen in my Boys Freshmen game on Wednesday. I'm trail, my partner's lead. A is offense, B is defense. Shot goes up, misses, players trying to rebound and eventually the ball gets to the floor and someone just batted the ball to the backcourt. I couldn't see who it was, as it was outside the lane opposite to me where my partner would have had the better view. Ball goes almost to the opposite endline and the A1 regained possession. Not having any clue if there was any absolute team control I didn't blow anything and left that up to my partner to call. He blew his whistle and called backcourt. We got together and I asked him what he saw as I couldn't see anything. He said that the ball was on the ground and during the "fight for the ball" A2 pushed the ball into the back court with one hand. I told him good call, as it was with intent to get it away from the opponents and to a teammate.

1) What if it was?:confused: You still can't have a backcourt violation until player control is established.

2) See #1. Wrong call by your partner and wrong interpretation of the rule by you..

Jurassic Referee Fri Jan 29, 2010 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 656758)
Rep, look in the rule book under player control. Rule is 4-12. Your partner did not make a good call.

Casebook plays 4.12COMMENT and 4.12.6 might help him also.

Might.....

representing Fri Jan 29, 2010 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 656768)
Casebook plays 4.12COMMENT and 4.12.6 might help him also.

You guys are right. I did take a look at 4.12. Thanks

representing Fri Jan 29, 2010 02:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 656762)
1) What if it was?:confused: You still can't have a backcourt violation until player control is established.

You can't pass the ball without player/team control though, which is why I always thought that if a player batted the ball in an attempt to "pass" it to a teammate, than you have team control.

Adam Fri Jan 29, 2010 03:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 656796)
You can't pass the ball without player/team control though, which is why I always thought that if a player batted the ball in an attempt to "pass" it to a teammate, than you have team control.

All that means is it's not technically a "pass," by rule, even if it's considered that by fans. It's a "bat," not a "pass."

representing Fri Jan 29, 2010 03:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 656800)
All that means is it's not technically a "pass," by rule, even if it's considered that by fans. It's a "bat," not a "pass."

Gotcha. I stand corrected, thanks:)

Jurassic Referee Fri Jan 29, 2010 03:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 656796)
You can't pass the ball without player/team control though, which is why I always thought that if a player batted the ball in an attempt to "pass" it to a teammate, than you have team control.

On a missed shot, if a player bats or tips the rebound to a teammate, would you call that a pass(as defined in rule 4-31)?

just another ref Fri Jan 29, 2010 03:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 656800)
All that means is it's not technically a "pass," by rule, even if it's considered that by fans. It's a "bat," not a "pass."


Read the definition of pass.

Adam Fri Jan 29, 2010 03:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 656813)
Read the definition of pass.

Fair enough, I withdraw my previous comment, but player control is still required for team control.

Loudwhistle Fri Jan 29, 2010 04:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarecrow (Post 656687)
last touched, first touched....backcourt, in my opinion....

That only applies once team control has been established. A touch doesn't mean team control.

refiator Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:22am

No different from a throw in by A in front court, ball touched by A1, rolls into backcourt, and picked up by A2 in BC The fans go nuts, but no BC violation.
You have to have front court control established for a BC violation to be called.
This did not happen in this case...no violation.

Nevadaref Sat Jan 30, 2010 06:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 656729)
Just a thought... if the ball was batted in an attempt to get the ball away from the defense or to a teammate, wouldn't that be considered a controlled pass?

We had this happen in my Boys Freshmen game on Wednesday. I'm trail, my partner's lead. A is offense, B is defense. Shot goes up, misses, players trying to rebound and eventually the ball gets to the floor and someone just batted the ball to the backcourt. I couldn't see who it was, as it was outside the lane opposite to me where my partner would have had the better view. Ball goes almost to the opposite endline and the A1 regained possession. Not having any clue if there was any absolute team control I didn't blow anything and left that up to my partner to call. He blew his whistle and called backcourt. We got together and I asked him what he saw as I couldn't see anything. He said that the ball was on the ground and during the "fight for the ball" A2 pushed the ball into the back court with one hand. I told him good call, as it was with intent to get it away from the opponents and to a teammate.

Here's a thought. You need to stop telling people about the rules until you learn them yourself. You are an inexperienced, self-promoter, who is nothing more than a wet-nosed, puppy official. Right now you don't deserve anything other than a JV game. This whole situation is covered word-for-word in the Case Book, but despite what we tell you, you just won't learn. You still think that you already know everything. :(

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player
is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds
from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass
away from other players who are attempting to get it
. The player is not in control
under these conditions.

representing Sat Jan 30, 2010 08:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 656956)
Here's a thought. You need to stop telling people about the rules until you learn them yourself. You are an inexperienced, self-promoter, who is nothing more than a wet-nosed, puppy official. Right now you don't deserve anything other than a JV game. This whole situation is covered word-for-word in the Case Book, but despite what we tell you, you just won't learn. You still think that you already know everything. :(

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player
is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds
from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass
away from other players who are attempting to get it
. The player is not in control
under these conditions.

Nevada, What the hell?! I'm trying my best to turn myself around, and I even admitted TWICE in this thread that I was wrong and that i stood corrected.

mj Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 656961)
Nevada, What the hell?! I'm trying my best to turn myself around, and I even admitted TWICE in this thread that I was wrong and that i stood corrected.

Representing, I think what Nevada is trying to say is do not post until you look it up yourself. You have been a member of this site for 2 months max and have over 400 posts. That is more posts than I have in 7 years on this site (and I officiate football and baseball too). It is a fabulous site to learn from but not if people are posting wrong rulings.

Be a lurker for a bit and listen to the vets on here (you'll know who they are after awhile). That and learning from your mistakes is how you're going to learn.

mbyron Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mj (Post 656981)
Representing, I think what Nevada is trying to say is do not post until you look it up yourself. You have been a member of this site for 2 months max and have over 400 posts. That is more posts than I have in 7 years on this site (and I officiate football and baseball too). It is a fabulous site to learn from but not if people are posting wrong rulings.

Be a lurker for a bit and listen to the vets on here (you'll know who they are after awhile). That and learning from your mistakes is how you're going to learn.

+1

Your pattern of posting goes like this: somebody posts a question, you post an answer off the top of your head, that answer's wrong and you're called on it, you post "my bad."

Why not skip that initial post and just look up the answer first? Just a suggestion. :)

bob jenkins Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 656990)
+1

Your pattern of posting goes like this: somebody posts a question, you post an answer off the top of your head, that answer's wrong and you're called on it, you get defensive, you argue, you post something else wrong, you complain about not getting varsity games, the correct answer is given again,you post "my bad."

Why not skip that initial post and just look up the answer first? Just a suggestion. :)

Amended, ;)

mbyron Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 656995)
Amended, ;)

Yeah, I know -- but the point remains that all the preliminary stuff goes away if he goes to the book the first time.

fullor30 Sat Jan 30, 2010 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by representing (Post 656729)
Just a thought... if the ball was batted in an attempt to get the ball away from the defense or to a teammate, wouldn't that be considered a controlled pass?

We had this happen in my Boys Freshmen game on Wednesday. I'm trail, my partner's lead. A is offense, B is defense. Shot goes up, misses, players trying to rebound and eventually the ball gets to the floor and someone just batted the ball to the backcourt. I couldn't see who it was, as it was outside the lane opposite to me where my partner would have had the better view. Ball goes almost to the opposite endline and the A1 regained possession. Not having any clue if there was any absolute team control I didn't blow anything and left that up to my partner to call. He blew his whistle and called backcourt. We got together and I asked him what he saw as I couldn't see anything. He said that the ball was on the ground and during the "fight for the ball" A2 pushed the ball into the back court with one hand. I told him good call, as it was with intent to get it away from the opponents and to a teammate.

Why, if you couldn't see anything and your partner makes a call would you find it necessary to get together? You say you had no clue and left it up to your partner to call. After he does, you now want to discuss with him? You're very confusing. Maybe it's hard describing situations or communicating that has everyone jumping on you. You may want to keep your questions brief and learn more by reading other situations than presenting your own. Just my .02


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