Team Bench Technical for Unsporting Act
 

The last few days on this forum we have had a few situations where a Bench Technical was called for Unsporting behavior without a player or coach being charged directly. I am having some trouble with this and need some guidance/clarification.

First, I cannot find anywhere in the rule book/case book where it states a Team Bench Technical can be called for an unsporting act. For Administrative issues yes but not for unsporting. Example: Earlier this week there was a post on the V cheerleading squad. Another I witnessed in a GHS game. T Official called a simple hand check foul on V1. As he turned his back after reporting the foul, someone from V called out unsporting verbage to the official. The official turned toward the V bench, but could not tell who actually said it, it was a player who was actually in the game standing near her bench. So, he called an unsporting Tech on the bench. Told the scorer to count it as a team foul. I did not know you could do this and have been looking for an explanation in the rules. I must have my blinders on this week. Can someone point me in the right direction please.

Casebook play 10.4.4SitB

Note that in this particular case, the head coach also gets an indirect "T" assessed along with the team "T".

You can not Tech the Fans nor the Bench for an Unsporting Act
 

Thanks but that does not support an unsporting act from the fans nor an unsporting act from the bench. I agree, you call a Tech on the HC but you can not call a Bench Technical for an unsporting act. Rule 10-4 under ruling, states it much be charged to an individual if it was not the HC. I see officials do this and I believe it is wrong. An earlier, post was about a Tech issued on the visitors cheerleaders. You can not Tech the cheerleaders.

You can talk to Game Management and have them address the situation. In these Wreck or church league games, there are rules that state the HC is responsible for his fans and if they do not settle down the HC is assessed a T and you can request/demand that the fan(s) leave if they are that disruptive. BUT under NFHS there is no criteria that I can find that allows you to T up a fan, cheerleaders or the general team for an unsporting act. Am I missing something simple here?

Rule reference: 2-8-1 (note)

And 10.4.4B provides precedent for assessing a Team tech when you know an unsporting foul has been committed (you must know it's from the bench, IMO) but not who did it.

Here's a question off of your statement Snaq:

V AssCoach during JV game is sitting on the bench. Verbally berates my partner for a "bad call". I happen to be by JV HC and tell him to get control of his bench. As I turn away I hear a response from the same part of the bench including a muttered "BS". I issued a direct T on the V AssCoach as bench personnel. She claims she didn't say it. I'm not sure but my response was, "you shouldn't have said anything." meaning, your aren't the HC. STFU.

The bench T stood. In your opinion, should I have let the profanity go because I didn't have definite knowledge the AssCoach said it?

1. Are you sure it was her?
2. If not, are you sure it was from the bench?

Did she claim someone else said it, or did she claim she said something else?

Not that it really matters a great deal other than for reflection later. If you're sure she said it, it's good enough for me. If you're sure it came from the bench, I have no problem with it either, since the AC made her own bed, so to speak.

It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom sitting in the first row right behind the AssCoach. And by the way. It was the whole b---$#it. Not just "BS". It was profanity.

I've thought about it over and over. I'm on the fence because one part of me says, AssCoaches should shut up and if she had, the second act wouldn't have happened anyway. part of me says, if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?

If a fan said it, and you knew the fan said it, you should certainly not punish the assistant coach. If you chose not to punish her for the first act, how can you punish her for something she didn't do after that?

Huh?:confused: In casebook play 10.4.4SitB, the bench was penalized with a team technical foul.

From the 2003-04 POE's...
POE1-Sporting Behavior-Suggestions for improved behavior:--"Officials should be prepared to assess a technical foul for a team member/team demonstrating these unsporting acts. The specific inappropriate actions of a few team members may be individually penalized or the entire team may be assessed one technical foul."
Note that rule 4-34-4 states that bench personnel are team members.


You're also missing rule 2-8-1 and case book play 2.8.1. That covers fans.

And note that in the COMMENT of case book play 2.8.1, it states that the technical foul is a team technical foul.

Been in there forever, JPaco.

If you're not sure, you probably should have passed.

That said, if the AC had kept her mouth shut all along, you would have been more likely to give her the benefit of the doubt. If it was Mom, I'll bet she'll watch it next time.

IOW, you may or may not have kicked it, but I personally wouldn't lose any sleep over it since the lessons are there for everyone to learn. Whether they learn it is up to them.

Did you READ the whole story or did you just see an opportunity to jump on me because your panties are twisted? The HC ckaimed a fan said it after the game. At the time, I thought the AssCoach said it. Is that clear enough for you?

I've read the whole story and I've just untwisted my panties. I have the same response Smitty had.

You did ask "if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed? "

If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. If you don't want an answer from a particular person, just ignore it.

If you're sure that the "BS" came from the bench and who it came from, call the "T" and charge a direct "T" to whoever said it along with an indirect "T" to the head coach. If you're sure that it came from the bench but you're not sure who said it, charge the head coach with a direct "T". The bench is his responsibility.

If you're not 100% sure that it came from the bench, let it go. If you call it, you're guessing.

Jmo....

Thats not what he said Go back and re read it. He said if I knew Mom siad it. I didn't. at the time, I thought the AssCoach had said it.

Here's my quote:

it was only after the game that the coach told me that. At the time, I was convinced it waws the AssCoach as a response to my warning to the HC.

I'm astounded at the lack of reading comprehension here.

+1

maybe Mom will keep quiet next time...sounds like she owes that team an apology for her actions.

If Mom did say it and you knew she did, she doesn't have to stay in gym. That is something you can control.

He didnt' ask, "Do you know whether Mom said it?" If he had, I would agree with you -- that question had already been answered.

Instead, he was responding to your question -- and gave the same (effective) answer as JurassicRef, and the same answer I would have given. "IF you knew Mom said it..." is the same as "If Mom said it..."

Ditto.

We've got too many people posting now and I'm responding to one post when someone else posts. I was responding to Smitty's post. he's the one that implied I KNEW the Mom said it. That's what I reacted to. Sorry for that confusion.

I was asking about whether I should've passed on assessing the T on the AssCoach because my back was turned when the comment came. Sort of like putting time on the clock. I heard the comment. Could've sworn the AssCoach said it but because my back was turned I didn't have definite knowledge. Heck. I wasn't even aware there was a parent right behind the AssCoach. I didn't know that fact until a half hour after the game was over. So the parent involvement is just a red herring.

I did read what you said. Here it is:

I responded to that. I'm not the one whose panties are in a wad. I am just responding to what you wrote. In the other thread as well. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I'll rephrase and stand by my most recent comment. I would have passed, not knowing for sure who said it; and I think you should have passed as well since you weren't sure who said it.

I still wouldn't lose much sleep over it; just learn from it. If the AC was "verbally berating" your partner, a warning could have easily been skipped (depending on how you define "berates") and a T issued immediately. The warning to the HC is a courtesy here.

1. Hopefully Mom will learn to keep her trap shut.
2. Hopefully AC will learn to keep her trap shut.
3. Hopefully HC will learn to control his bench better.
4. Hopefully you've learned from this as well.

By the way, I'd say the fact that you had any doubt after the game is evidence enough that you probably should have passed.

This is one of my points in my OP, you can not charge the Bench with an Unsporting Tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the HC. You just can not call out a "Team Bench Technical Foul for Unsporting ACT." This is then recorded as a Team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul. Game management is responsible for the fans, and if game management is not present then it is the HC's responsibility and you whack him with the Direct T for any actions with the fans cheerleaders or general bench personnel. If you dont know who said it you can not just whack them with a Bench Tech.

In a game I observed someone from the bench area called out verbage in an unsporting way to an official who had his back to their bench. He turned and did not know who said it so he just whacked them with a T - He stated,"That is a Team Technical foul for unsporting conduct on the bench." He told the score keeper to mark in in the book as a team foul. No foul on the HC.

This is incorrect procedure.

10.4.4B is an example of multiple infractions charged to the Team, with an indirect to the coach. Although the example is not for unsporting behavior, I'd use the same process.

2-8-1, 2.8.1 and 10-1-8 all seem to imply that you can charge a Team T for unsporting behavior (including, in rare cases, by the fans).

I'm reasonably certain that NCAA has an AR where someone on the bench mouths off, and the procedure is to charge a "bench T" without knowing exactly to whom to give the foul. I don't know if the FED has such a play. (Frankly, I think if you said that you had to give it directly to the Coach, someone would volunteer that s/he made the remark).

Snaqwells last sentence is a pearl of wisdom. In the T's I've given, the ones that I would give again if I was in the exact situation later are the right T's to give. The ones that I would "take back" are ones I probably shouldn't have given.

Did you even bother to open up your books and look at those rules and case book plays cited?

For instance, in the COMMENT in case book play 2.8.1 it says -"Another problem arises when team supporters throw debris, paper, coins, ice or other items on the floor. If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items, the officials should instruct game management to have the supporter(s) removed from the site. If the official does not have positive knowledge, the official should instruct game management to make a public address announcement that the next time debris is thriown on the floor, it will result in a TECHNICAL FOUL CHARGED TO THAT SUPPORTER(S) TEAM."

Your point in your OP is wrong; it is contradicted definitively by the rules.

read the case plays presented, read the case plays presented!

Try reading this....

See Situation #9 in the 2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations. Note the sentence that says "The referee is also within his/her authority to assess a team technical foul for unsporting behavior on the spectator."

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

Changed your mind yet?

Yes
 

I appreciate all the input and Yes I did read the rules and case book at lunch but I guess I got hung up on Exact wording for T'ing up the Bench for Unsporting. You are correct that there is not exact wording in the CasePlay for unsporting behavior and I should use descretioin and past interps to interpret the proper call. I think I got it now and you all have been very helpful...I do make it a habit to abide by the guidance an insight you all provide and to make sure I read the manuals as suggested. That is the best way for me to comprehend, is reading the actual rules. Appreciate you all! Enjoy your games! I think we can move on to something else.

Three Times Is A Charm ...
 

'Nough said.

Much of this statement is totally incorrect:

1. A TEAM bench may be penalized for unsporting behavior. See 10-4-1. Also, see 10.1 for a team technical, disputing your statement.
2. ALL team fouls are counted to reach the bonus. See 4-19-13.
3. If the fans are out of control, stop the game and get things under control -- clearing the gym if you have to. If its a spontaneous act (like throwing Tennis balls in the Florida game a few years ago), that is a T that would be applied INDIRECTLY (if at all) to the head coach, as you can not call a DIRECT T on the coach for the actions of others. (Hence the term, direct.)

Everything in your original post was covered in the rules clearly (except possibly the part about the coach's indirect T for crowd behavior) without needing to reference the casebook. I'm not sure why you are making statements that are unfounded.