too many players
 

Was just thinking about a game I had two years ago. Home team substitution, one player must have misheard that she was being subbed for. My partner gives the ball to opposing team for a throw-in and ball is thrown in. I see a girl running off the court and onto the bench. She didn't affect play at all, but my instinct immediately blew the whistle for too many players on the court.

I may have messed this up... I gave a T to the player that was the extra player on the court, and an indirect to the coach. Thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong, and was probably thinking of soccer where an extra player gets the yellow card.

Only reason why I'm thinking of this is because I just got assigned a Girls JV at the school where this happened, and that team doesn't welcome me back in their gym for Girls JV anymore. I'm kind of secretively being assigned because if the school finds out, they'll call the assignor and try everything to get me off of that game.

What is the proper procedure for this? It's a T to the team, but nothing for coach and player right?

The proper procedure would've been to have your hand up until the sixth player went off the court and for your partner to be looking to see if his partner was ready.

Failing that, it's merely a team technical foul.

Personally, I hope every single JV program in the area has blackballed me from working their games. Of course, if a tree falls in the forest..... :D

You're right, you were wrong. Just a Team T, nothing to the players or coach. You don't know which player was the 6th, she may have just taken the bullet.

Also, your assigner needs to grow a spine instead of sneaking around like that. They try to block you just because of a T for 6 players? Really? I've never had an assigner who'd have even taken that call.

That's how corrupted our league is, hence my ranting the other day about the system around here. It does suck. My assignor is a very powerful man, and knows other powerful people in the area and they "control" the basketball system around here. Like I said, it sucks!

How powerful is he if he's sneaking you into that game?

We missed it. I didn't see that more players came onto the court than left the court, so that was our mistake in the first place. I put my hand down to signal that I'm ready and I hear the coach yelling to so-and-so "get off!"

Two questions... would any of you have called it if the girl came off just after the ball was thrown in and didn't affect the play at all?

Other question: how many team technicals can a team get? I don't see anything in the rulebook about team technicals, and since it isn't an indirect to the coach it seems like they can be given as many as necessary, and it would just be two FT to the other team and ball.

I was actually given this game by someone else who can't do it and my assignor was all like "well, they don't like you there but I'll let you have the game anyways". As for telling the school that I'll be there, I don't know if he's doing that now or later in the week to make it like an "emergency replacement".

I count the players on the court anytime we have more than a one-for-one substitution. It doesn't take long to count 5 and 5. The guy with the ball should be doing that, too. If I'm the administering official on a throw in, I'm counting the players, too. If my partner's hand is up, I'm not starting. If I count anything but 5 and 5, we're not starting.

If the ball's already on the court, there's not much you can do. If your partner is just handing the ball to the thrower-in, hit your whistle and stop them, and complete the sub. You'll take grief either way.

Ever since that game I count 5 and 5 when it's more than 2 on and 2 off per team. If I see a team with not enough or too many players, I tell the coach.

If she's running off just as the ball gets in, I wouldn't see it. If she doesn't get off until a few seconds after the offense has the ball in bounds, not much you can do.

An assigner in this case, IMO, should have assigned you to their games just out of principal; unless they've officially blocked you.

I count every time there's a sub, even one. I had a 6 player T in a varsity game last year. All three of us missed it. Home coach asked me, "aren't you suppose to stop that from happening?" "Coach, we do count, but it's courtesy."

Representing - based on your previous posts I think you should be open to the idea that there is more to you being scratched from this school than a technical foul for 6 players on the court. You've demonstrated a propensity for making up rules and not following others at will - to the point you may not even realize you make up rules or don't follow them perhaps (your insistence you handled situations correctly that not one other person here agrees with).

So perhaps instead of blaming a "system" or "powerful" people, you should focus on your own development and study the rules more effectively?

This is coming from a friendly place - just think you're playing the martyr without looking at the whole situation.

Thanks for the tips, but in this case it was for the T. The coach tells everyone "I don't want him here because he called a T on me for too many players on the court" etc etc etc.

Count them EVERY TIME it's more than 1 player on and off from ONE TEAM. One sub is easy. Beyond that, how can you be sure?

While the rules ultimately put the onus on the team, this is something that can and should be prevented.

Take your role in preventing this seriously and get in the habit of having your hand up keeping play from starting until you've personally verified that each team has five players. In your pregame, mention that no throw-in should occur while the off official has his hand up.

This is good tip, I will definitely do this!

Let me ask this, then.

How long had the ball been in bounds when she stepped off?

A second or two maybe...

Borderline, IMO. Sounds like she wasn't participating when the ball was live inbounds, and she was heading towards the bench. If, by the time you saw her, she was within a step or two of the sideline, I may have let it go.

Regardless, the coach trying to block you for this is just flat stupid.

Funny this is being discussed because this happened to me this weekend at a Middle School tournament.

I am T on the endline in the back court while partner is in the front court handling a substitution. He gives me the ok and I put the ball in play. We go up the court and B1 fouls A1 on a shot that goes in. Partner at L calls a foul. As we're switching so partner can report...Coach B yells out "They have 6 players!!!".

I count Team A's player and by darn it they have 6. I call the technical and report the team technical and explain we'll shoot the bonus shot with the line cleared, then Team B will shoot 2 shots for the T, and then Team B gets the ball at the division line, opposite table.

Coach B is still upset...."So they get points and they had 6 players on the court? You have to take the points off?"

Me: "Coach, this is not a correctable error. We called a technical and you'll shoot 2 and get the ball but we cannot remove the points."

Coach: (Sarcasticly) "Why didn't catch this before hand".

Me: "Why didn't you?"

Coach: (Obviously taken back) "Uhh... I don't wear the black and white shirt, its not my job".

Me: "Sorry coach we don't catch everything." (Walk off...)

It wasn't my best moment...but hey we live and learn. Ha ha.

Stop right here. Why didn't you count the players before bouncing the ball to the player?

While I'm all for trusting partners, they make mistakes. It's why, in football 2 officials are tasked with counting each team's players.

Sorry, this thread hit one of my pet peeves, I guess.

The NBA actually just created a rule last season to correct this situation so that the team with 6 players can't get the points earned while having too many men on the floor. Happened during a Toronto vs Portland game.

Two team technicals and the team is ejected. :rolleyes:

You should turn down any further games until you get a fundamental understanding of...

1) the rules
2) how to handle yourself professionally on and off the floor
3) no one cares that you are an official

It's not all about you. You aren't the show. Heck you shouldn't even be a side show.

Well said. Take heed ANYONE who constantly has problems with coaches, administrators, table crews, other officials, or fans. All of us have trouble now and again, but when it happens regularly, odds are there's a reason for it.

I actually told myself when I started 9 seasons ago that I would hang it up after two seasons if it was clear I wasn't a competent official. I wish more would say the same, or at least work at getting better, rather than taking the court with the attitude that they call a great game every night.

I certainly hope this wasn't aimed at me which I'm sure it was. I do get better every year. And I don't constantly have problems with coaches every game. You don't know me, so think before you speak out like that again. Especially someone like you who has very little posts in so many years as a member of this forum. I come here to talk about my games and learn from mature, experienced officials. I don't need someone like you heckling me and trying to force me to quit. I will not quit, but strive to do better with each game.

In retrospect, I withdraw my suggestion that you retire from officiating. I have 2 teen-aged sons who follow this board and I can appreciate that you represent every sort of bad example that I could not possibly imagine to caution them about. Your continued recitation of your exploits not only provides for a comic interlude but also gives my guys a point of reference to allow them to see why officials are oftentimes held in such low regard by the general population. It is ignorantly oblivious officials like you that affect the reputation of all of us. Hopefully by being exposed to the comments and suggestions proffered by the knowledgeable folks on this board you will elevate yourself from being just a bad example to become a competent official. Try humbling yourself and accept valid criticisms.
Please take to heart the advice you are getting from this community.

One reason I have so few posts is that I come here to read and learn rather than to show everyone else how much I know. I post when I feel I can add something productive to the discussion, or to ask a question and listen to the answers. I don't need to keep arguing my point to find the one person who agrees with me so I can feel better about myself. Get the chip off your shoulder and take the advice here for what it is.