Houston We Have A Problem!
 

High school boys varsity game ends (alledgedly) with the final score 86-88. Me and my partner are in the locker room changing when we hear a knock at the door. To our surprise it was the head coaches of bot teams with the official score book. Seems to be a error in the final score, both coaches agree that there's an error. Me and my partner observe the scorebook and we discovered the problem. The person who was keeping the book for the home team didn't add two points to the visiting team when he supposed to and this caused the visiting team to be down by two points. What do we do now? Me and my partner decided to make this right, we would put our uniforms back on, go back out to the gym and play one overtime period. Both coaches had no problem with this and after the end of the overtime we had a winner. What would you have done?

The game was over when you left the floor with the official book indicating 88-86. A scoring mistake discovered after all officials leave the confines of the playing area is not correctable.

Basically, there is a point where a score is final...not subject to further review. It is necessary that such a point exists. It just happens to have been defined based on when the officials leave the floor area. No matter how right it might feel to resume a game 10 minutes after you thought it was over, it isn't.

The teams should be keeping score and should be making a big stink about a mismatch long before you got to the final buzzer.

If the book was correct and the two points were in there, but they were not properly posted to the scoreboard, then officially the game was tied at the end of the 4th quarter when you and your partner left the visual confines of the gym. You can come back and play the extra period in that case.

However, if the two points were missing from the book when you left, then it is too late to correct this now. The game is officially over.

We just had a thread on this: http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...ers-error.html

Case Book Play 2.2.4 situation C
 

This situation is similar to 2.2.4 Situation C in the 2009-2010 Case Book (Page 7):

2.2.4 SITUATION C: Team B leads by a point with seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 releases the ball on a try, but the noise level makes it difficult for the covering official (umpire) to hear the horn. The umpire signals a successful goal. The referee definitely hears the horn before A1 releases the ball, but does not realize the umpire counted the goal. The officials leave the visual confines of the playing area & are not aware of the controversy until the scorer comes to the officials’ dressing room.

RULING: Even though the referee could have canceled the score if the officials had conferred before leaving, once the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, the final score is official and no change can be made. In situations such as this, it is imperative that officials communicate with each other & that they do not leave until any problem regarding scoring or timing has been resolved.

Rule 2-2-4 states (Page 14 of the 2009-2010 Rules Book):
The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated & the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

+2 for being too late to correct the score. There's all kinds of rules backing for that;
1) rule 2-2-4
2) rule 2-11-11
3) cassebook play 2.11.10SitB

Sorry, you get just one vote. :p

What if the points in the player section indicate a tie game, but the running score total indicates home team ahead by two. Can the officials comeback to fix this? Does one section of the official score book take precedence over the other?

1) No, as per rules already cited.
2) Yes, as per the rules already cited(2-11-11).

Great question!

Vanity Score
 

The player's scoring section is often called the "Vanity Section." The official score is kept on the running total line, generally at the top of the page....It takes precedence over the vanity section.....

I agree that once you're out of the visual confines, the game is over. I think a better thing to think about now is what could have been done to avoid the situation? Did anyone from the crew check with the official scorer late in the game? I will sometimes, especially in close games, during a late time out go over to the table and make sure that the scoreboard and book are correct. That way we can leave the floor in a hurry after the horn and you're good to go.

Putting the misapplication of the rules aside, what are some of the lessons learned:

1) Rule book states in Rule 2, Section 11, Article 11 - that the official scorer is to "compare records with visiting scorer after each gaol, each foul, each timeout, and end of each quarter and overtime period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy." When I am the 'R' I ask that the scorers sit together and compare notes. We as officials blow over this rule. We need to enforce it.

2) I was taught in a close game, always check the score book before the end of the game during a time out or some delay just to verify that everything is ok.

It's time we enforce Rule 2-11-11 and verify the score book as close as possible to the end of the game. We are to blame as officials.

The progressive team totals, otherwise known as the running summary of the score, in the official scorebook is the one that counts. It takes priority over everything else.

How's that for the teams putting the officials in a horrible spot?

I know I wouldn't go back and do OT. I also hope I would've been over at the table a few times checking that the books match and that the scores match. Even in a 12 point game last night I went over twice (and I was actually the U, 2-person -- it was just more convenient for me considering throw in spots in front of the bench).

Rule 2-11 (Pages 17-18) Scorer's Duties
 

The scorer shall:
ART. 1 . . . Keep a record of the names & numbers of players who are to start the game & of all substitutes who enter the game.
NOTE: It is recommended the team member’s numbers be entered into the scorebook in numerical order.
ART. 2 . . . Notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players.
ART. 3 . . . Signal the officials by using the game horn or a sounding device unlike that used by the referee & umpire(s). This may be used immediately if, or as soon as, the ball is dead or is in control of the offending team.
ART. 4 . . . Record the field goals made, the free throws made & missed, & keep a running summary of the points scored.
ART. 5 . . . Record the personal & technical fouls called on each player & notify an official immediately when the fifth foul (personal & technical) is
charged to any player, the second technical foul is charged to any team member, bench personnel, or directly to the head coach, or the third technical foul is charged to the head coach.
ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who & when) & notify a team & its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.
ART. 7 . . . Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure & be responsible for the possession arrow.
ART. 8 . . . Record the number of warnings in the official scorebook, as in Rule 4-47.
ART. 9 . . . Signal the nearer official each time a team is granted a time-out in excess of the allotted number.
ART. 10 . . . Signal in each half when a player commits a common foul beginning with his/her team’s 7th & 10th foul.
ART. 11 . . . Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time-out, and end of each quarter & extra period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy. If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise. If the discrepancy is in the score & the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. The scorebook of the home team shall be the official book, unless the referee rules otherwise. The official scorebook shall remain at the scorer’s table throughout the game, including all intermissions.
NOTES:
1. The rules committee strongly recommends that the official scorer wear a black & white striped garment & that his/her location be clearly marked.
2. The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials.

Apparently the official scorer in this situation, didn't fully understand their duties properly nor did they read "Instructions to & Duties of the Scorer for Basketball Games".

There's no need to keep posting this.

I wonder if he knows whether the scorer at JV-C games keeps track of the arrow?

Unfortunately, those that do the Sub-V books don't keep track of the arrow. I've only had one game this year where one of the books kept track of the AP, & that was last weekend, & it was the visitor's book.

I keep mentioning that the scorer is supposed to keep track of the AP, but it falls on deaf ears. Apparently neither the coaches nor the AD seem to want to follow rules/regulations.

If the V book keeps track, and the H book doesn't, is that allowed? Aren't the books supposed to compare everything? Do you have a reference for this?

Rule 2-11-11, is that a good enough reference for you?

If the books are supposed to compare everything then why are some table setups done where the books aren't sitting side-by-side?

According to both Rule 2-11 & "Instructions to & Duties for the scorer of basketball games", the Official Scorebook is to be keeping track of the AP.

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

That was the only time this year, that during a Sub-V game that I noticed that one of the scorebooks was actually keeping track of the AP. Yes, the official scorer is, by rule/regulation, to keep track of the AP. However, they were never trained to do so. Just like I was never trained to do so when I was Boys' Basketball Manager doing the JV & C-Squad Books. So in this case, blame the coaches & the AD for not following the rules.

I was just thankful that at least someone else besides me was keeping track. I've had no complaints from the officials as I've done a great job with the AP, though there have been a few mix-ups, but at least somehow the AP is being taken care of, even though not according to the rules/regulations. It wasn't until this year & reading the rules book, case book, & officials' manual that I even realized that it's the job of the official scorer to keep track of the AP.

As I read it the score was there but not reflected on the scoreboard.

Officials may not re-start game, but does not effect final score.

Game recorded as a tie.

2-2-4 says, "THE final score." There is no final score unless the game has ended (or could end), and the game doesn't ever end in a tie. There's no question that if there is an error in the book that has one team with more points at the end AND the officials leave the confines of the floor the game is over. However, if there is NO error in the book and it indicates the score is tied, the game is not over regardless of what the officials have done. There's no provision for a tied game, unless its declared interrupted or suspended.

So, assuming you have a score book that is correct (tied in points) and a scoreBOARD that is not correct (one team has more), when its pointed out to the officials, the game CAN continue without violating either the provisions of 2-4-4 or the casebook interpretation -- based on the scoring and overtime rules in Rule 5. I don't see anything in the rules that:

1) defines "final" or "final score." Thus, based on Rule 5, you have a tie game which means OT;
2) makes the scoreBOARD score official and the score that the game is left with if the officials leave the court;
3) specifically defines the word, "score," which means we look to the rest of Rule 2, and it is clear that it is the BOOK that determines what the real score is, not the scoreBOARD.

We leave the confines of the playing area at halftime, but the final score is not approved then. 2-2-4 doesn't specifically state at the end of the 4th quarter or at the end of an OT. Thus, it HAS to mean when a final score COULD POSSIBLE be approved, and it can't possibly be approved in the case of a tie.

Is this a correctable error? It is obviously some type of error, but is it correctable and can it be correct in the time frame that the error was discovered by the officials?
My first thought is that while there is an error, the timeframe in which we are allowed to correct the error ended when the officials left the visual confines of the playing court.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the table crew will be more vigilant in the future.

No, it's not a correctable error at all, regardless of when it happened.

It is a scoring error that could have been corrected at any point after it happened up until the officials leave the visual confines of the court.

Houston you have a big, big problem!
 

This should never happen especially if the table crew has worked together for any length of time.In a game like this the timer/board operator and official scorer should be conferring ("_______,does the board score match your book?-is an appropriate question to ask).Also in tight games it is common practice in our area for an official ,while reporting a late game timeout, to come and check timeouts remaining and whether the books (H & V) match!
It also brings to mind the question of scorekeeper training and experience-What percentage of the schools you serve have reasonably experienced scorers and tables? The schools in my league go like this in terms of scorekeeper experience

VG:
Me-4'th season as girls official scorer
A-1'st season
B-1'st season
C-1'st season
D-1'st season back after several off!

VB:
Me-5'th season as boys official scorer
A-1'st season
B-1'st season
C-2'nd season
D-2'nd season

Houston We Have A Problem
 

First, thanks for the feedback from everyone and it's easy to say what we would or wouldn't do when were not placed in this situattion. Me and my partner considered the spirit and intent before making a mutual decision about returning back to the gymnasium and playing overtime. We bot agreed that this was an error on our parts and I truly believe that because both coaches wanted to see the outcome of this game finished fairly it also helped in our decision. Me and my partner both learned a valuable lesson and we never received a call from our assignor or the league in regard to this game and I was happy about that.
I understand what the rule book states and I guess our main concern was trying to get it right. I doubt if this will ever happen to me again and I hope from sharing this situation with everyone that they don't face this problem.

The spirit and intent of the rule is that particular game was over as soon as you and your partner left the visual confines of the court.

Agree...and while the other points that you made are well-taken, everything else that you wrote is completely irrelevant to the particular situation being discussed.

NFHS rule 2-11-11--"If the discrepancy was in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team total totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score."

NFHS rule 2-2-4--"The jurisdiction of the officials is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area."

1) Game ended with one team mistakenly ahead in the running score---> check.
2) Referee accepts bookkeeping mistake(wrong running score)---> check.
3) Final (wrong)score approved when both official leave visual confines of the court---> check.

That's all she wrote, podner, rules-wise. The officials' jurisdiction was terminated and by rule they no longer can fix the bookkeeping error.

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

They were in response to a specific comment:

I'm not sure why we had a long discussion on a point that was already perfectly clear and covered by the casebook virtually word for word. Without going back and rereading the OP, I thought MAYBE (based on the above referenced comment) that a discussion on that situation might be helpful. That was the reason I posted what I did.

Sounds like I misread your intent then. For that I apologize. Note that I did say that your points were well taken though, fwiw.

For example: last night before Girls' JV, the Home coach, said he wanted the scorebook right next to the home bench, tried arguing the point with him but like talking to a brick wall. I never thought of bringing the officials in to get the table setup with the books side-by-side. If that happens at one of the final 2 games, I'll do that instead of letting it slide.

It was for reasons like this that I did the thread on how the table should be set up. As before this year, when I was doing the Sub-V games, the books would always be right next to their benches.

It's also been cause of the books being next to their benches (& lack of proper training) that when I'm Scoreboard Operator/Timer, that I've been doing the AP instead of the scorer.

What if the V coach doesn't want his/her scorer moved? They want their scorer close to their bench so they can communicate, then what?

I generally have the table setup where it's shot clock, scoreboard/timer, home book (official scorer), then visiting scorebook.

The shot clock is next to the home bench, with the visiting scorebook next to their bench.

However yesterday, the Home JV Coach disliked the setup and said that his scorebook was to be next to the bench, so technically the Home JV Coach was going against rules/regulations by not having the Official Scorer taking care of the AP.

Could this be considered a T for not following through with rules/regulations?

No.

In the main gym (V games) the table setup is generally, the shot clock (next to home bench), scoreboard/timer, Home (official) scorebook, & visiting scorebook.

In this setup during the V games, it's the official scorer that does handle the AP as per rules/regulations.

If you want to fight this battle, it's up to you. Don't be surprised, though, if you get shot down and/or replaced. It's not worth it.

Also, the rule says the scorer is "responsible" for the possession arrow. It doesn't say he has to be the one who physically controls it. IMO, he's "responsible" for it just as the HC is "responsible" for the conduct of his bench personnel.

My advice: relax.

True, they are supposed to keep track of the AP via the scorebook, however in my case, that isn't even happening.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, for the V games, the scorer does actually physically control it.

Though, isn't there a bit of an argument there about who is to be physically in control of the AP? In "Instructions to & Duties of the scorer for basketball games" states under equipment:

"Scorebook, pencils, possession arrow & signaling device with sound different from that of the timer. The scorebook must be available for inspection at the table from 10 minutes prior to game time until the referee has approved the final score."

Under During the course of the game, it states:

"1. The nonofficial scorers should check each entry with the official scorebook.
2. The scorers should:
a. Announce to each other & record the total running score.
b. Announce the name & number of the player who scores.
c. Verify the scoreboard score.
d. Compare the summary of individual scores with the total running score at the end of each half.
e. Exchange the name & number of the player committing a foul & indicate the total fouls charged to the player.
f. Be responsible for the alternating-possession arrow.
g. Record warnings reported by an official.
3. In case of controversy, the record of the official scorebook is
accepted unless the referee has knowledge which permits him or her to rule otherwise."

As I said, "responsible" doesn't necessarily mean physically moving it. While it may or may not be a best practice, depending on your set-up, it's not required. Around here, the arrow is often located directly in front of the clock console; meaning the timer has it like it or not.

Aside from all that, there's no prescribed penalty for failing to adhere to all of this. You certainly couldn't penalize the coach for making his wishes known, even if they're followed.

It's nothing, live with it and move on.

I am not complaining about doing the AP.

I was just trying make sense of what one document says compared to another document.

uh-oh now I've gone cross-eyed & confused myself :eek::confused:

They said the same thing, "scorer is responsible." It just doesn't mean what you think it does. :)

I also find it helpful if someone at the table takes charge and lets me know if s/he observes any thing like uniform infractions, subs not making it all the way to actually touch the X before entering the game, someone not paying attention to the game all the time.

You can solve the books not sitting next to each other and the coach's request to have the book at his end by putting the books on one "level" of the table, and the clocks on another.

Like Kissing Your Sister ...
 

Mark Padgett would agree with you.

For the past games, starting with the one that Rookiedude was an official, there's been an "X" taped to the floor. However, I've been observing that not all players are on it when they get called into the game.

Speaking of the "X" on the floor, like I mentioned above, since the Boys' V game that Rookiedude officiated, the "X" has been there in front of the official scorer via athletic tape on the floor. I requested a meeting with the HS Principal via e-mail before the games yesterday, since he was out sick, I met with the vice-principal. I mentioned about the "X" on the floor, he mentioned that plans are in place to redo floor markings & that have an "X" in either purple or gold could be placed in front of the official scorer, instead of using the athletic tape like now.

I had a supplement to the meeting with some rules/regulations excerpts concerning my observations that I wrote & printed out that I handed to the Vice-Principal. He was actively concerned about my observations. Just now gonna wait & see what transpires.

Dammit, you got me Bob :o

Kinda like nuclear bombs
 

If they're close, or on the way, it's close enough.

Then don't let them in. Especially if it's the visitors. They haven't PROPERLY reported.


That sounds good, but what if the scorer then doesn't sit right behind the "X" (or you move the scorer, or the officials decide to make the V book the official book)?

Since it needs to be redone anyway, I'd suggest a wooden "X" painted gold on one side and purple on the other. Then, cut "X"s into the floor all along the scorer's table and place the wooden insert into the appropriate slot on the floor. The others could be filled with the cutouts that match the floor. IT would look pretty sharp and give you the flexibility you need.

Get another appointment and suggest it before they begin the work.

You are a bad boy Bob.:D;)

Nice!
 

Me likey! Always helpful that Bob!

For clarification right now, the taped "X", which was removed after Rookiedude's game, but was replaced the next game by CHSLadyEagle & I, is placed right at the center of the table. However, some players when they come in to sub, will stand/kneel at the edge of the table. The table is a portable table that's located so there's just enough room for a player to kneel/sit in front of it so they're OOB.

The X is supposed to be on the floor.:rolleyes:

Just had to keep this thread going, didn't you.

AKA It's on the floor, in front of the scorer's table, center. All sarcasm & joking aside, it surprises me that those that are supposed to know the rules/regulations (coaches, ADs) don't seem to even want to adhere to the rules/regulations.

Like in the case of the official scorer being next to the home bench, instead of sitting in the middle of the table.

Like I mentioned in another thread, I found out (by browsing out of curiosity) that FIBA has the scorers' table set up basically the same exact way I have been setting it up lately. (Only difference is no Commissioner at the table).

Dude, you've got to let this go. The two can talk to each other even if there's someone in between them. It's not that hard.

2 people between them (timer & shot clock), for the Sub-V games the scorebooks seem to only communicate if they didn't know who scored or who the foul was on. Other than that very tight-lipped.

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CB...imated-033.gif

One person, two people, doesn't matter; close enough to talk if they need and/or want to. Frankly, setting them next to one another isn't going to change a thing. Is it preferred? Sure, but it's not worth losing any sleep over.

Who cares in sub-v games? Isn't there a timer/scorer message board you can go play on?

As long as the scorer is close enough to change the arrow, then the scorer is close enough to the visitor scorer to communicate.

Hence wherein lies the problem, the scorer for the Sub-V games, as long as I've been doing table operations, has never done AP at my alma mater. The only times at my alma mater where I've seen the scorer doing the AP has been during Varsity only.

Even during 4A Regionals last February, it was the timer that was doing the AP.

You, and the timer, are just enabling the scorekeeper. Don't change the arrow. When the game gets messed up, point at the scorekeeper. The officials will take care of the rest.

Feeling ornery tonight, Bob?