Pregames
 

I remember from reading in the officials manual that the officials do a pregame conference to try to be on the same page. Should the table crew do something similar?

How often is the table crew actually involved in pregame conferences?

I have a quick meeting with the table crew each time I am the R on a game and while I am signing the books. I think it is a vital vital part of the game as they (table crew) can make you look really bad or look really good if something strange happens. IMO, table crews make or break an officiating crew.

When I'm R, there are three pregame conferences on the court.
1. Captains
2. Table
3. Coaches

Each has its own purpose and none lasts very long.

What I'm meaning in my questioning, John, is should the table crew by itself have a pregame?

Most of the time, when the officials do the pregame with the table crew, the questions are: "do both books match with their lineups?", For the Scorebaord/Timer "Do you have any questions concerning when to start &/or stop the clock?" I know there are other questions asked, but can't remember them all.

Just FYI, you're going to have a tough time getting a very informed and interested opinion on the table crew from a bunch of people who don't normall work on a table crew.

It's like asking all of us if we think the coaches should have a pre-game meeting to discuss strategy, etc. How would I know? I'm not a coach.

I realize I'm asking something that may or may not make any difference in the game. I was just wondering if maybe the table crew did a pregame (like officials do before coming out onto the court, or walking to the court) perhaps the game could flow even more smoothly.

I'll say this, the less experience your table crew has, the more good this will do.

I work the clock for a JV boy's team at my daughter's HS. Our pregame with the refs is very short:

They ask
1. Done this before?
2. Any questions?

They may add that we need to inform the players to wait until beckoned when subbing in.
That's about it.

As a timer, I will usually say to the scorers that I will be checking frequently with them to make sure we're in agreement.

The scorer I work with is so good, I would pay her to come do my games.

I could say the same thing about the scorer that does the BV games. I wish there was someway she could train those that do the SUb-V games. She does things I hadn't seen before.

And she's a pretty good scorekeeper too right? :D

I'm meaning how she does the book. nothing else.

She does a running score using the margins of the book, for one.

The book she uses doesn't have one already? I've never seen a book that doesn't have one.

What she does is that she actually writies the score as it happens in the margin.

(example: 0-0, 2-0, 2-1, 2-3)

She uses the running score up top as well but she keeps track of the overall running score as well for leads, ties, etc.

why?

I have no idea exactly why she does it. Probably so that the coach can keep closer track of the score while watching game film.

Next game, if I get the chance I'll ask her.

Could be she has a journalist's mindset or is friends with any reporters covering the games. This is the type of thing that's very valuable to them (and they should be doing themselves, frankly, though not all do). And it won't come through in any score book or statistician's tallies otherwise. and eagle's right, a coach could make hay with, it too.

Why would the table crew need to have a pregame? THEY FREAKIN SIT NEXT TO EACH OTHER!!!!! Sheesh! :rolleyes:

This way everyone's on the same link/page. Also, this way everyone knwos what's expected of them, especially if they have not much of a clue about what they're doing or what's expected of their attitude/behavior.

My pre-game with the table (which I always do if I'm the R, and also if my partner is the R and doesn't do it) includes everyone, and thus would serve as a "group" pre-game for them. Although I like to think having a good table pre-game helps prevent problems, it's no guarantee. (Tuesday afternoon's game comes to mind!). But generally it lets the table know that they need to step up and try to act professional. Depending on how they act during the pre-game, I know how much effort I have to put into them for the rest of the game.

This isnt so comlicated chesgale that you should overthink it.

I ask the person doing the shot clock 1 question "What do you do if we have a jump ball?" if they answer that correctly they are good.

I ask the person doing the score and clock 1 question "On all official stoppages of play (ie. TO's DQ) when do you give us the first horn?"

I ask the person doing the book 1 question "How do you penalize a T?"

Of course I get their names too but thats it. That will tell me all I need to know about the tables ability for the game. I also make it clear that as a crew we need eye contact when reporting and if there are any issues to hit the horn immediatley. Oh I also ask that they refrain from hitting the horn for subs unless we miss it (I like as a crew for us to notice the subs and hit our whistle to get them in). I think it helps to show that we are on top of things.

On jump balls, if the team on offense keeps the ball, no reset. If the team on defense gets the ball, reset.

On full TOs & Intermissions: 45 seconds into. On 30-sec. TOs: 15 seconds into. On DQd, 5 seconds into.

If against an active player or players on bench: Mark 1 personal as well as 1 T & 1 team foul. If against a DQd player on bench: 1 against team foul & an indirect against the coach. If player dunks or grasps basket in warm-ups, 1 personal, 1 T, 1 team foul, & indirect against the coach. Sub coming in without beckoning &/or reporting: 1 personal, 1 T, & 1 team foul. Administrative: 1 team foul. Asst. Coach: indirect against HC & 1 team foul. HC: 1 T Direct & 1 team foul.

Concerning the horn & subs, I don't always buzz when I notice an official call subs in.

What I am meaning by having a pregame for table crew is just the table crew by themselves. A time to discuss what is & is not allowed concerning behavior while at table (remaining neutral, no cell phones or friends, etc.)

Another thing concerning table crew, on "Instructions to & duties of the scorer for basketball games", it says:

"DURING INTERMISSIONS:
1. Either the official scorer or a delegated assistant must be at the
scorer’s table with the official scorebook at all times."

How often is the scorebook left on the table with no one there?

Anything you would do as a table crew to try and be really good is nothing but a positive. Great table crews can be a tremendous asset to officials. Bad table crews can make things inconvenient for an official, but cannot hurt them.

Great table crew: odds 1:1,000,000

Bad table crew: odds 1:100

Or does someone have different odds?

Basically as I see everything (sorry if sounding like a perfectionist), every game is the state final.

Your odds on a bad table crew aren't even close. 99% of the table crews I have are good.

I wouldn't even notice if they're great, to be honest, as nothing normally happens that would separate a good table crew from a great one.

I was just making estimated odds, hence why I asked for other's odds.

I knew you were estimating, but you had them backwards, IMO. :)

I agree.

As far as the table crew having their own pregame, it depends on the situation. If it's the same crew that's worked together frequently, there's not really much need. On the other hand, if there's someone new or that you haven't worked with in a while, there's certainly no harm in taking a few seconds to make sure you're all on the same page.

I divide table crews into two categories, a) Good Enough and b)Not Good Enough. At the freshman level, that's all the distinction I need. With a little attention from me for the very inexperienced people, I almost always have Good Enough. I can only think of a couple situations in 11 years that I would call Really Bad. So I'd agree that the odds are 99% in favor of Good Enough.

If you go back & look at my posting about the odds, I changed it to correspond to what you told me.

I supose I'm fortuante that my primary timer partners (in both the fall and winter seasons) know what they are doing. I suppose if I was paired with a complete novice, then I might take time to see what they know and proceed from there.

That said, I will usually let my timer partner know at the beginning of the year if there are any relevant rule changes (such as when all of the warning horns were changed to be 15 seconds before the end of the duration or when the time to replace a disqualified player changed from 30 to 20 seconds).

Table Crew From Hell ...
 

Worst table crew, ever, in twenty-nine years, for a boys varsity game last night. Man, I wish these guys had had a pregame.

1) My partner calls the first foul of the game. He moves to the reporting area and waits for the young man, a high school student wearing a very nice tie, who is the home scorekeeper, to make eye contact with him. The young man is talking to a player on the home bench near the table. After a few seconds, the timekeeper finally elbows the scorekeeper to pay attention, and my partner finally reports the foul.

2) Timekeeper, the home athletic director, never figured out the possession arrow. It was wrong the entire game.

3) Several minutes into the third period. Home team is up by twenty points. Foul count is four against home, one against visitor. During a thirty second timeout, the visiting scorekeeper, a young lady, also a high school student, calls me over to the table and says that there is a problem. She tells me that the home scorer has three fouls on Visitor #33, while she has only two charged to Visitor #33. I tell both scorekeepers to get both the books to match. They can't agree. They start comparing team fouls and personal fouls, in both the first and second half. The time out is now long over. I tell the players to stay near their benches and my partner joins the pow wow. Neither scorekeeper is going to budge on this issue. Home scorekeeper wants to use coaches stat sheet as a backup to his scorebook. I tell him no way, we're going to get this done here at the table. I tell them again to make the scorebooks books match. What I really want to say is, "Look guys, this is a twenty point blowout game. I would bet my house that Home is going to win, even if Visitor #33 has no fouls. Hey you, kid with the tie, can't you just erase Visitor #33's third foul? Why should I believe you have the correct fouls, you weren't even watching my partner when he tried to report a fouls in the first half, you were fooling around with a friend? Your going to win this game no matter how many fouls Visitor #33 has. Hey you, high school girl, can't you just let the winning team's scorekeeper, and, if you haven't figured it out, they are going to win this game, no matter what, have his way and change your scorebook so that Visitor #33 had three fouls. By any chance is Visitor #33 your boyfriend? Are you afraid he's going to foul out? C'mon guys. give me a break." But, of course, I can't say that, it would be unprofessional, so I pretend that I care about the foul disparity, I get the young lady to add a third foul to Visitor #33, and we play on.

Why waste so much time trying to make them match? If they can't figure it out within a reasonable length of time, go with the home book..just like the rules tell you to.

Lah me......

In My Unprofessional Opinion ...
 

Which is what we did, but in this blowout game, anything more than ten seconds was an unreasonable amount of time. The whole discussion probably lasted ninety seconds, but it seemed like ten minutes.

Some questions for you, BillyMac:

Why was the timer doing possession arrow, instead of the scorer?

How was table set up?

I am asking about the table setup, as I've gotten into the habit of having the table set up the following way: shot clock operator, scoreboard/timer, official scorer/home book, & visitor book.

For what it's worth
 

I had an excellent table crew tonight for my BF/BJV games - no runs, no drips, no errors!

Adult on the clock, and two squared away yutes doing the books.

We had our "pre-game chat" and I told the official scorer to put away his Cell/PDA. He did. At the half of game two as we were going back on the floor he says, "last text ref, then it's going away." :cool:

It is so great to have a good table crew. Makes everything smooth.....

And yes, the players were all in numeric order in both books! ;)

Side Note - as my P and I are exiting the court toward our locker room, we go down our hallway and some of the counties finest police officers had two, apparently not so law-abiding teenagers against the wall and were frisking them pretty good. Lots of school staff on the scene. Good night for us - bad night for them!

Jack Of All Trades ...
 

Around these parts, most table crews consist of an official scorekeeper (home book), visiting scorekeeper (visiting book), and someone who operates the scoreboard (score, time, team fouls). The scoreboard operator also takes care of the possession arrow, which in many cases is actually built into the console that operates the scoreboard. No shot clock for high schools here in the Land of Steady Habits.

The scorer is "responsible for the posession arrow." That doesn't mean s/he has to be the only one who physically presses the button.

You're my hero. You figured out the art of crtrl+c and ctrl+v.

To answer your question- no the table crew isn't involved in my pregame with my partner. There's no need.

If I'm the R, I remind them about the running score and eye contact for the timer,stopping on a whistle and starting on a hand chop for the timer and my 24 second operators get more details.

Bob,

I was asking a bit of a stupid question, as I've seen the possession arrow physically taken care of by either the scorer or the the timer. In the JV & C-Squad games where I'm scorevoard/timer, I'm the one that physically handles the possession arrow. Then again, generally the official scorers in the JV & C-Squad games don't keep track of the AP either. Only once so far this year, during a JV or C-Squad game, have I seen a scorebook keep track of the possession arrow, that happened this last weekend. The scorebook keeping track, however, was the visitng book.

When I mean physically handle the possession arrow, I actually spin it, as it's a wooden arrow.

However, on the "Instructions to & duties of the scorers for basketball games", under equipment it states:

Scorebook, pencils, possession arrow & signaling device with sound different from that of the timer. The scorebook must be available for inspection at the table from 10 minutes prior to game time until the referee has approved the final score.

Crew experience!
 

When the table crew has worked together for any significant length of time a pre-game is not necessary. Everybody knows how to work with everybody else! Does any state have a rule that for regular season games the table personnel must be adults (Scorer,Shot Clock Operator-if applicable,and timer)? Mine does for the postseason but I was wondering if any did for regular season play.

Not here in NVA. We have a lot of very competent, teenagers do the books much of the time. I have had few issues - thankfully.

I just make sure they put away their cell phones and PDAs.

I'm getting used to you doing so

If you want to improve your table, this is a place to start. Just as with the "book score" vs. the "scoreboard", the "posession" in the book is what matters. If it's indicating the AP goes to team A, and the physical arrow is pointing to team B, and the difference can't be reconciled, we're going with A.

Our former public middle school league required the timer to be an adult. Since the old league had A and B games, the home team many times used a B team player to do the A game book and an A game player to keep the home book for the game.

Our present MS league has no such rules.

Basically falling on deaf ears when it comes to the sub-V scorebooks. As far as they're concerned, they only should keep track of score, fouls, & timeouts.

The season's halfway over, & finally the "X" in front of the scorer is being placed on the floor. BTW, it was thanks to Rookiedude that this started happening.

Concerning the scorebooks & the duties of, I am thinking of e-mailing the Principal of my alma mater, as my suggestions/rocommendations/concerns seem to be falling on deaf ears for game management from talking with the AD.