Opinions....thoughts
 

YouTube - Melissa Curtis takes head shot

Not my game, so I don't know a lot of the details but it is a game from out area so I am curious as to how you all handle this.

Do you have a flagrant on white, or just a common foul on red?

It actually looks like she is trying to throw a behind the back/head pass to the girl on the wing - in which case there is nothing flagrant, but I have a pc foul for the elbow. Now if I judged that she did it intentionally then no question it is flagrant IMO.

Video's pretty grainy, so it's hard to tell for sure. Looks like red grabs white's arm, and due to momentum caused by the first foul, white hits red in the face when she tries to pass the ball away.

They really shouldn't have tried to get her up so quickly. Where was the coach on this one???

I do not see anything flagrant about this. Just because you get hit in the head does not mean that was illegal. And it looks like the defender caused contact with the ball handler first and prevented the dribbler from passing the ball properly. Just because you got hit in the head does not mean someone was trying to hurt you. I got nothing but a regular foul as the officials appeared to have here.

Peace

I agree with the others so far - looks like the defender grabs the ball handler's arm and that causes all the commotion. It also looks like most of the "damage" comes when the back of her head hits the floor.

And I also agree that they should not have tried to get her up so quickly - not with the way her head hit.

Yeah you guys are right, went back and looked again and I do see the arm grab - and the elbow looks to be the result of the momentum caused by the grab and subsequent body spin. Foul on red that's about it - again unless you judge that the spin and elbow by white was intentional. In which case you could have a false double with the second half being flagrant and ejection.

Would love to know if there was any "history" to this pair. Agreed it appears it should be simply common foul on red but, man, does it appear the ballhandler is totally indifferent about the defender hitting the deck -- and collapsing. That's the epitome of cold.

That might be true, but in this play I see nothing that says this was done intentionally in anyway. The ball handler was grabbed from behind and spun around. I agree she might not have been worried about the welfare of the opponent, but that had nothing to do with the contact that took place.

Peace

What's with the soundtrack? :confused:

Agree with Rut, it looks like she's attempting to pass. Thought she got hit with the ball the first time I looked. This does not look malicious to me, just something that sometimes happens in basketball. Too bad she didn't try to help her up the first time, but who teaches sportsmanship these days? Another question in this situation as the official, would you rule she needs a doctor approval to continue playing? She looks unconcious to me and that is what I would rule.

From the video, she appears to me to lose conciousness when she falls to the floor.

No reasonable coach is going to put that player back in the game before getting checked out anyway, but in my game it's going to require a doctor's note.

Yes....I wouldn't let her back in without a doc's approval.

Yes, she is going to need doctor's approval if I am on the game. If she is not unconscious, I do not know what she is after falling out like that.

Peace

Agree I think it is impossible to know just watching the video. It comes down to the judgement of the official on the spot, and best believe if that is me and I had to separate the two of them at the other end of the floor 30 seconds ago, I am taking that into account when I decide what W's true intent was.

I see it a bit differently. White is definitely pissed that she is being harassed as she dribbles. There must be some history or just a real attitude on white. She doesn't swing at the red player per se, but that is really wild, unorthodox throwing movement of her arms. She's definitely is not trying NOT to hit her (if that makes sense). She is not doing a standard or even flashy pass. That is movement born out of frustration.

I could perhaps see an intentional especially if there is history with this player. Prob not flagrant, but common, intentional or flagrant, I'm definitely having a word with this player and/or her coach.

Agreed.

Agreed. I would just have the common foul on red from my six-replays look.

for those of you that said she lost conciousness, can i ask what medical school you attended which trained you to make that diagnosis from the chair in front of your computer screen?

while you may play the role of basketball official many evenings during the winter, don't pretend to be a medical professional....if you have a question about it, ask the trainer/medical staff at the game; don't make that judgement on your own.

2-8-5: Determine when a player is apparently unconscious. Teh player may not return to play in the game without written authorization from a physician (MD/OD).

That's what I need to give me the authority to tell the coach that the player isn't coming back in without a doctor's note.

I usually agree with everything you say, but the rules say that we can determine a player is unconscious. Now we may not be totally accurate, but all that is required for them to play is a verification of their health and fortunately or unfortunately we are given that responsibility here. And for the record this is a NF policy in other rules like Football and Baseball (I would assume that this is also the case in other NF rulebooks for different sports) that I work that uses the same language and puts officials/umpires in the same responsibility for making this determination. I also think this is so that coaches do not just bring back in players that clearly have been hurt and since being unconscious deals mostly with the brain or overall health of a person, the NF wants a doctor to verify that a player is not let back in too soon. I would honestly hope that a coach was more responsible for this, but somewhere coaches must have put players back in the game when they were not medically cleared or ready to participate.

Peace

That is complete garbage...I don't need to be a medical professional to determine that a player appears to lose consciousness. Especially in this video. That kid is leaving and not coming back in without a doctor's approval, and I don't need to ask anyone's permission to do that.

And if you can't tell she appears to lose consciousness from the video, then maybe you need a bigger screen to help with that eyesight problem.:rolleyes:

Like maybe Texas Tech?

And he had medical backing by a trainer. But this example just shows how this is a slippery slope if we give only coaches the responsibility to make these decisions.

Peace

I wouldn't say he had backing so much as the acquiescence of a trainer in his employ. But you're right, and that was why I brought it up.

According to the trainer at Texas Tech, he claimed what the coach did was acceptable (after the coach was fired). So he did have some medical backing, but maybe not enough to get medical support from a doctor or even a specialist.

Peace

I must have read a different statement. What I read said (paraphrasing now), while it most likely did not cause any harm to the player, it is not accepted medical practice.

Just checked, it was the treating physician: Final edit. Looks like the trainer wasn't exactly on board, either.

Agree totally, PEA seems to have his panties in a bind. I havent' had to make an "unconscious" call yet, that's why I was asking. This forum has correctly guided me in a lot of areas, PEA's post is one of the few that I could do without.

defensive foul all the way.

Agreed. Besides, wouldn't you rather err on the side of the player's safety rather than saying "Well, I'm no doctor, so I guess she can play..."

I'd rather not have the responsibility; but....

No way did she lose consciousness. She just got her bell rung and didnt want to jump right up. So she laid there for about 3-5 seconds. Ive seen unconscious and bell rung. That is clearly bell rung. Im not stepping in doo unless I have to - I will ask the coach if he wants to sub her out.

also if a player is unconscious you will see all her teammates on the floor calling for help. They will most likely be giving the univeral sign for "someone get your rear end here shes out cold" which we all know is the furious cand wave to call someone over...

People that get their bell rung usually just don't fall flat on their face after getting up. That player is done until I get a Dr's note.

Did you watch all the way to the end of the video? I agree...I don't think she lost consciousness right away. I think she lost consciousness when she got up then fell flat on her face.

Damn, I'd quit watching at that point. No way she comes back in without a note after that.

Im with snaq on this - i quit too - shes done without a note.

I didn't watch it the first few times, either. I watched the remainder at one point just to watch the player reactions and how the officials handled it.

Glad to see you write this, I was starting to lose faith in you!:D

Might have been Jeffpea's oversight too!

Remember guys, always watch the whole utube!!:D

Hey, I'd refrained from commenting on that particular issue. :)

Frankly, my original and unstated opinion was that the video was inconclusive on the issue; and I was about to write it when the prompting came to watch the end.

The NFHS Soccer rule is very similar. I had an interesting situation in a Sectional Final. Players collided in the air "knocking" heads. This occurred right in front of my spectator side Assistant Referee. The AR told me the visiting player stated "I was out for a second." I informed the coach, and requested a sub. At half time an adult came to me with the player. He said he was an MD, he gave me a paper that had 5 or so little stick figures drawn on it indicating each "test" he had preformed on the player. At the bottom was his address, the date and his Signature. I allowed the player to play in the second half. Filed a report with the State after the game and I still have the signed note. The MD was a fan of the Home team but still provided his "services" free to the visiting player.

I do not claim to know all the details or following the situation that closely. All I know is that there was a report that I saw that claimed the trainer and doctor said what took place was OK. Now those were reports which I would not be in the least bit surprised that did not tell the entire story or the story found other developments later on. Either way it goes, the point I was making is that this is why you want a doctor to give consent because a coach might play a player that is not capable to handle the trauma.

Peace

I agree with you on that, Jeff. There's too much pressure on them to win to also entrust them with the decision on concussions.

You made me curious, though, so I had to read more on it.

I have always enjoyed cold women. :cool:

I use to watch Doctor Quinn medicine woman. I see a player lose conciousness, I make them get a Doc's written approval before letting player in again,and I've done something wrong.

I'm on the side of the angels here. :)

Getting one's "bell rung", from everything I've read is typically a concussion. You don't mess with concussions.

The way she fell gives me reasonable evidence of "lost consciousness". I'm erring on the side of caution here and there is no way that young woman is taking the floor in this game unless I get a Doctor's note.

I had a boy's V game a few years back where two guys from the home team went head-to-chin going for a loose ball. Kid who took it on the chin was down and out - and yes, even though I am no medical professional even lowly referee me could tell he was unconscious. After about 10 min. of being taken care of by trainers, he is helped to the bench. I tell coach he is done without a Dr. approval.

Come back out for second half, and coach is waiting for us at the table. Turns out the family doctor was there (had a son on the same team) and "approved" the kid to play. Had them staple the written note into scorebook and away we went. Kid comes off the bench in third quarter and proceeds to wander aimlessly around the court on defense. At a dead ball, I asked him if he was OK and he called me "Dad". I turned to the coach - but he had heard the whole thing and got a sub up. As I turn back to the player, he starts vomiting all over the place. They ended up getting him to the hospital and he missed two weeks with a severe concussion.

So the moral is - err on the side of caution. Cause sometimes the coaches (and even the doctor) won't.

hopefully in his box where he belongs, waiting to be summoned onto the court

It's not his box. It's called a "coaching box," not a "coach's box." :D

In certain situations, and this is one of them, if a coach runs on the court to tend to his/her players, I consider them summoned even if I didnt have to look at the coach and say "Hey coach you want to deal with this..."

BS:D Until I lose it by going howler monkey, other than the seat of my chair, that's the only space on the court that is mine! And I'm not conceeding it to word play, or semantics, or a rule book reference. :mad:

:o sorry, I calmed down, the box is whatever you say it is sir, I'm gonna go sit dowm now

Easy coach. I'm not going to have you coaching me like I'm one of your players. If you have a question, I'll be happy to answer. :D

because a boy would get punched in the mouth
 

OK, this is a coaches perspective and one that I've not even heard from other coaches. But I am known as a coach who is really into and observant of the mental/emotional aspects of coaching girls. I feel it's a must if you want to get the most out of female players. There's an old coaching saying, "girls don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." Boys (90% or more) will "run through the wall" whether they like their coach or not because of the competetive nature of boys. Girls are different.

Boys grow up playing basketball in unsupervised situations; after school, in parks, in the driveway, at recess with the lunch monitor no where in sight, etc. When I was 10 yrs old, if I shoved an airborne shooter (layup) into the basket support pole, there's a good chance I'd get punched in the mouth because there's no adult right there to make sure that doesn't happen. Boys develop a basic form of respect for their opponent that girls don't experience, because when girls start playing basketball, there is virtually always an adult with a whistle right there. With rare exception, girls only play in supervised conditions. There's no threat of physical consequences for doing something stupid like trying to hit an opponent in the face with the ball as hard as you can because you just got spun around on a hard foul.

Is this provable? Absolutely not. Did Red commit a hold foul? Sure did. Can only do something about what is visible and clear- the foul by Red.

Girls will dive, or barrel roll through an opponents legs when the ball is on the other side of those legs rolling out of bounds. When two are chasing a ball out of bounds, girls will use their momentum to continue to push their opponent into the stands, or into a close wall on an endline, when they could have just made a slight body adjustment in angle, or force and protected their opponent a little bit. Girls will "hip check" airborne shooters. Girls will take the legs out of the shooter on layup attempts. Girls will use the most foul disgusting language at opponents very quietly so referee's don't hear. Girls will throw the basketball directly at an opponents face. Girls will raise their elbows like a football O lineman while screening. I could go on, but there's no reason to.

I believe that boys learn at an early age to not do these kinds of things. They learn an essential and very basic respect for their opponents that girls miss out on. I'm not saying that ALL girls play this way. But I've seen the comments in posts in here, "Why is is that these things seem to always happen in girls games?"

Boys don't put up with that kind of thing. That exact thing happens in a boys game, and do you think the other 9 players are just standing around? I think there may be some tempers flared, or worse. In this video, I think her (white) body language says it all, "that's right, I just punched yoU in the face with the ball *****."

Coach, you got me thinking. I wonder if it doesn't also partially explain the whole "ball ball ball" think being only something girls do. Boys would, as the coach mentioned in another thread, set a hard screen pretty quickly. It's the equivalent of a high and tight pitch in baseball to a batter who took his sweet time circling the bases on his homerun the time before.

I agree and one of the main reasons I stay away. Because when these girls fall and get hurt, it is not about what the coaches allow, it is that I did not call a foul that sometimes is not a foul. I have only seen girls get blazing mad when they are fouled during the course of a regular play. Boys have to build up to that problem and usually they get upset over the course of a situation.

And I do agree that boy's learn how to compete very early. Girls often come to the table late or did not compete as really young. Or at the very least we teach them not to be tough, so when they are confronted with contact or pain, they overreact. Of course this is not apply to all of them. The girls that compete hard and do not get mad tend to be the best players. They somewhere realize they do not have to get that girl back because she fouled her. But the girls that get run into and want to fight tend to be the problem makers. And too often there are way too many of those players.

Peace