Defender counting out loud during inbound
 

I'm a coach and would like to get some clarification. When an offensive team is inbounding the ball I instruct my player who is defending the inbounder to count out loud to five. Yesterday I was told that my players were not allowed to do this. The ref said that I could say anything else "Apples,Apples Apples" but not numbers. I have been searching high and low in a rule book for a rule preventing a team from doing this. The ref gave a warning and said that we could be called for unsportsmanlike or disconsertion. I've read about disconcertion and have only seen explanations that relate to free throws. Please help me out.

Why do you have you players count out loud?

See rule 10-4-1(b)-"attempting to influence an official's decision". That's exactly why you're teaching your players to do that. And note that you will get charged with the "T" because you are teaching your players to do that. We could also call a "T" on your player for the same reason instead of calling one on you.

I personally won't allow it and we teach our officials not to allow it either. Warn and wack. The sole purpose of that ploy is to try and intimidate us into making a call.

Do you coach your players to say the same thing during your throw-ins?

Bad coach!

Bad, bad coach!:D

I can tell you that the throwing team would probably be allowed about 10 seconds to make the throw-in because I would get distracted and lose my count, if a defending team was doing this. ;)

Then I would stand right next to that coach's huddle during the next time-out and count the seconds of this time period out loud while he tried to talk with his team. :D

Not attempting to influence the officials at all. I've been coaching for 8 years and never recieved a T. I have great respect for officials. In the spring time I umpire baseball games so I know how it feels to be on the other side. My reason for doing this is to create anxiety in the inbounder and get him to rush. We intentiotionally count a bit faster than the official and never once have I, or my team complained to an official after we get to five. If it is indeed a violation I will stop but I want to know the correct rule that prevents it.

Here's some free advice: Your intent here is obvious and is all around a bad idea. Stop trying to find ways to influence the game through underhanded, disingenuous techniques and start teaching your kids how to play better basketball and be better human beings.

Let me see if I've got this right.....you come on here and you are asking us to help you out??? Help you out to do what??? Give you and your players "help" so you can screw with an official???
If it were me..I'd get you where it hurts more...T on your player, indirect T to you.

The rule that would apply is the one cited above. Many may interpret it as unsporting behavior. If an official warns you and/or your players to knock it off, it's because he deems it unsporting. I'd listen in those cases.

And if the official doesn't call a violation when/if your fast count hits 5, the official looks like an azzhole.:rolleyes:

It's not a violation. It's a technical foul for committing an unsporting act.

You were given the rules citation that says a technical foul can be called for that act. If you get one, don't be suprised. You came here wanting an answer and you got one. It's up to you whether you want to believe the answer or not.

Not attempting to influence the officials at all.
[I]right up there with....
The check is in the mail:rolleyes:

You can only do that by rule if someone on the bench is doing the counting....

In this situation, your choices are a "T" on the person committing the unsporting act or a "T" on the person teaching the unsporting act. You have rules backing for either, but not both.

Please don't do this. You can give a T to the player or to the coach, but you cannot give the coach an indirect T for a TF charged to a player on the court.

Coach, the problem is the perception that by counting your player is telling the official that he is not correctly doing his job of accurately counting the five seconds for the opponent. It just plain looks like your player is attempting to embarrass the official. (JR has so eloquently pointed this out. ;) )
If you truly have respect for the effort that officials make, then you will take the recommendation which you have already received from your local game officials and have the player say something else besides numbers.

Coach, creating anxiety for the thrower is not a valid reason for doing this, either. In the end, your "intent" really doesn't matter as it always will come across like you're trying to influence the officials.

Do you have your defenders count for closely guarded? What about backcourt? How about free throws and three seconds?

I am curious as to what level of ball you coach; more specifically and on point, what level of ball are the officials letting you get away with this garbage?

Snaqs,
Please do not give him any more ideas.....:rolleyes:

Wow!!! Egos, egos, everywhere. I never said that I was right. I was
attempting to get a professional ruling. If it is in fact illegal I will stop, as I don't want to be assessed a T. With that said keep your coaching advice to yourself. A good official can have a productive dialog with a coach. My teams are known for talking the entire game. We play an aggressive full court game where we attemp to get our opponents to rush. We trap and are all over the court. We say "shot" everytime. We say "I've got ball." We say I've got help. In traps we yell "Bury, Bury, Bury." (If youve ever played the game you understand the difference between a silent trap and a loud trap). On rebounds we yell ball. We huddle at every opportunity and never talk to officials. This year my team has recieved two technicals. One for hanging on the rim..ref was correct. The other was reaching over the line twice (once touching the ball...this is bound to happen because we chart 5 second calls and average over two per game.

Got it Snags. Thnx.

Try this, instead. Have your player on the ball try to mirror the ball to make the throw-in difficult, have the other four players deny their men the ball really hard, let the official count to five, and then work on your under-the-basket inbounds play. :)

There are many other unsporting acts that you can "teach" your team to commit (disconcerting the FT shooter, etc.) in the name of creating a competitive advantage for your team. Unfortunately, none of them is legal. Lots of ways to create anxiety on the part of the opponent. Most involve simply playing hard.

How annoying.

What's this have to do with the OP and the responses you received?

Even if you are not actually trying to influence the ref, we are so used to coaches and players trying to influence us (“that’s a foul”, “over the back”, “three seconds”, etc.) that hearing a player or coach counting on the inbound is going to fall right into the same category in our minds. Even if you are sincere, most refs aren’t going to buy it.

You've been given the ruling and you didn't like it; so you call us out for our egos? Nice.

Again, what level of ball do you coach where the officials have allowed this? You mention hanging on the rim, so I'm going to assume varsity; but it's just a guess.

FWIW, I haven't heard "ball ball ball" or other such noise since I worked my last girls game in Iowa.

Really. Until I read "hanging on the rim" I figured it was a girls team. In my experience they're the only ones who yell and talk the whole game. Boys teams usually just play basketball.

To me the player counting is no different than the coach yelling out 1-2-3 to try to get a 3-second violation. It's getting a quick "knock it off" and after that a technical for being unsporting. It has nothing to do with ego. It has to do with the perception that I'm not counting fast enough and that the player (or coach) is trying to help me. No. Way.

I started out as a college assistant for 5 years and am currently coaching high school. I got this idea after attending a coaching clinic hosted by the late Skip Prosser at Wake Forest when he was speaking about his full court pressure philosophy. When my local official respectfully told me that I could not do this following half time I respectfully asked him why and we simply chatted for a minute. I told my guys to stop and they did. Would it change anything if prior to the game I adressed this with the officail and told them my intent. Personally my feeling is that an official shouln't worry about looking like an azzhole to the crowd. Remember I am an umpire and have taken a ton of you know what when calling balls and strikes from the crowd and never once has it bothered me or influenced the way I make calls.

Also known as "Walks like a duck, talks like a duck..."

I T'd a coach for this very thing a couple of weeks ago.

The way I look at it: Your team is allowed to act like your team (making defensive calls when on defense and offensive calls when on offense). You wouldn't be allowed to, for example, have one of your players stand near the opposing bench and call "motion" when your team was on defense, or have one of your players yell "screen right" to the opposing point guard when your point guard was bringing the ball up the court (and took advantage of the hedging move the other guard made when hearing the call).

Nor are you allowed to make official calls. Yes, sometime you (or many) call "3 seconds" or "5 seconds" or "travel." But, if those calls are all the time, they get shut down, too.

Not sure who your reffing. What about teams that play a match-up zone? Is it girly for them to talk? Should players be silent on screens? Every coach in america has there team talking in practice when they are doing shell defense. Every sucessful trapping team must talk in transition to scramble for match-ups. If your going to practice that way why wouldn't you play that way?

Because it's annoying?

I'm talking about the "only for distraction" "BALL BALL BALL BALL" idiocy. I'm not talking about complete silence.

As opposed to some of the posts, I've got no problem at all with the talking. Lots of talking is fine. It's your and your team's prerogative.

However, if that talking goes from communicating into unsporting acts, expect it to be enforced. And every official has slightly different judgement on what's unsporting, so if one tells you to cut something out, I'd listen.

My least favorite is "DIG DIG DIG DIG DIG DIG!!!"

So you've already showed your hand and know nothing about how the game is played. As a professional your best response is that its annoying.

I think Rich meant that screaming at opponents during traps, dead balls and throw-ins ("BALL, BALL, BALL!") is classically a girls ball tactic. I would agree. Of course good defense needs communication in the scenarios you mentioned above. These are two different things.

Edit: Rich clarified this while I was typing my response. Redundant.

Wow, you must really be an amazing coach if you can gauge my skills as an official just by a few message board posts....

Exactly.

Of course the coach would rather come on here and insinuate I know nothing about basketball even though he knows nothing at all about me.

In the situations where good communication is necessary, officials don't even notice. It's part of the game and blends right into the "beautiful noise" of the game itself.

He's talking about the "ball ball ball ball" stuff. When the ball gets buried in a trap, I'll normally hear them call out "dead" or something, but it's not continuous. Maybe it's the altitude here, but they tend to think there are better things to do with their oxygen than expell it for the purpose of distracting an opponent.

Talking to communicate is one thing; talking to distract, intimidate, or produce anxiety in the opponent is another.

Not that I deal with it in anyway; it's all perfectly legal even if it is considered bush league. Now, counting on an throw-in is different.

And if a coach were to approach me pregame and try to tell me his intent for doing this, I'd very specifically tell him not to do it. At this point, I probably wouldn't bother with a warning in the game, either.

Oh...well...I thought he was talking about me...:D

Maybe he was. You know how thin-skinned we officials are. ;)

I've been many DI, DII, DIII college games and the better teams are always talking. Especially in traps. Why? All in an attempt to raise the anxiety level in your opponent. Just like anything in life when anxiety is high people panic and make poor decisions. We like to cause panic. Thats why teams that play us turn the ball over 21 times per game and average more than two 5sec. violations per game.

Coach, do you really think we care about your coaching successes in here? Seriously? No more than you care which officials who have already responded to you have worked state championship games (hint, not me).

Ok, coach, you win. You're a great coach. You rock. You're awesome. Do whatever you want during the game. We don't care.

Not trying to blow my own horn simply attemting to make a point of the style of basketball that I teach. I teach my players to communicate....an important life lesson. I teach my players to play with sportsmanship and we don't taunt or talk to refs. Nor do we show negative body language. But, as a professional in my field I recognize that I don't have all the answers. So what better place to go than to officiating.com to get a professional answer. Then only professional answer was to refer to 10-4-1b...but that was followed by "bad, bad coach." I guess i'll have to sign on with a different user name and say i'm a new referee and i have a question. Saying I am a coach without a doubt brings negativity with some high strung refs.

That's not true. Verbal communication should be a form of communicating amongst team player and/or raising the adrenaline of the communicating player. As an official, I'm not annoyed by these "talking tactics". I think it can be good basketball to use verbal activity to raise ones playing level. HOWEVER, if its evident that a player or coach's verbal activity is intended to directly inhibit the other team (and usually its apparent when it happens), I will without fail consider it unsporting.

Gee, I thought it was me....oh wait, I haven't posted in this thread yet..:D

Just a bit about the way things work here, you'll note he added the smiley face. He was chiding you a bit; it's what we do and it was done in fun at the time.

You got the reference, a lot of concurring opinions, and not a single dissenting opinion. You've got representative opinions from officials all over the country, and it's unanimous.

FWIW, a "new official" would have gotten the same response. A "new official" who argued with the response would have gotten an even worse follow-up response.

You actually think it's the yelling that's causing the turnovers? As a PLAYER, some idiot defender yelling "BLAH, BLAH, BLAH" at me made me laugh, not turn the ball over.

I'm quite sure good hands, quick feet, and discipline have more to do with the turnovers than "voice-induced panic", unless you are playing in a league where all your opponents lack mental toughness.

But back to the OP. I would tell your player directly on the spot to knock it off and then I would inform you, the coach. Continued counting would lead to a direct T to the perpertrator.

It's not because you're a coach.

It's because you're a coach, who comes asking for clarification, then gets that clarification and not liking the answer, then saying that we, the officials, are being egotistic because you don't like our answer, then going even further and questioning our officiating knowledge even though you don't know a damn thing about us.

So, yes, there's some negativity here, but not because you're a coach. It's because you're a troll. Now be gone, troll.

Last night I had a kid behind me in the stands who was counting aloud my silent 10-count during free throws. He was definitely watching my hand, and quietly counting each signal. Kinda odd.

How about girls always yelling "BALL BALL BALL BALL BALL" on every inbound play they're defending? That drives me nuts. When I know they're going to do it, before I hand the ball over to the inbounder, I tell the defender, "You don't have to yell BALL BALL BALL. We already know it's a ball." They yell it anyway.

Having been on both side, coaching and officiating, I can tell that here that coach, you missed the:D..You came to an officiating board to ask a question. You got an answer then you proceeded to defend your actions. That should be for a coaching board. You are not going to win an argument about officiating as a coach on a officials board.

I coach now and check this board out daily because its helpful and entertaining. I add now and then, and occasionally ask questions. But never am I going to argue about something as silly as "communicating" on the court when no one really cares. You made it a big deal out of nothing, so the sarcastic nature of officiating came out.

You would think that refs would want coaches to be more informed about rules coverage areas, ect. The more a coach knows the less he complains and if there is a dialog it can be an intelligent one. Believe me, I know how the business works being an Umpire. At meetings and post game watering holes some umps are so proud of tossing a coach, removing a fan, calling a strike to get the last out in order to get out of there. The old ump saying "When in doubt...out." Some guys just don't get it and like the stage.

I'll accept that as true.

Then, since all (here) agree that the count is unsporting, I think you have to stop teaching it.

That was custom at the school i took over for when i first started coaching girls. I knocked that off because I just did not want to hear it. Now with the boys..its just normal basketball talk with the yelling of "Dead Dead Dead" when the offensive player picks up his dribble

Coach:

No one has thrown his ego around in this thread yet, but now I will. JurRef as quoted chapter and verse for you and very accurately described why coaches have their players do what you have your players do. We officials are not stupid, we are far wiser about the horse manure some coaches try to throw on us in the name of gamemanship and then get mad when we correctly do our job and stop the nonsense you are trying to impose upon this great game.

MTD, Sr.

AS I stated earlier, after having a respectful conversation with the ref I had no problem telling my guys to stop.

Sounds like a total team effort with the vocal approach.

You probably already do this, get your bench in unison to give the wrong countdown when your opponent is in a last second shot situation. You know, 5,4,3,2,1 when there is really ten seconds or so left.

Here's another one, keep pulling your opponents jersey out when the officials aren't looking, and maybe they'll be asked to leave the game. I have a ton of 'em, but you probably already use these and ones I've never heard of.

I'll say this, if you were my son's coach and I heard this practice, you'd be down one player.

Your countdown besides being illegal, is unethical.

This entire post is a non sequitur, coach. Additionally, adding the gratuitous shot at basketball officials because of your limited experience with baseball is counter-productive.

You forgot tugging at an opponents shorts when at the free throwline

There you go...throw your weight around. Give me a break. It's funny how short some guys get when the "opposition" asks a question. Yes JurRef gave me an explanation and I am certainly thankful for it. Perhaps I missed a bit of playful sarcasm when he said Bad, Bad, ref.:D So JurRef: Thank you. But I shouldn't feel like a shark in the water when I'm simply asking a simple question in order to become more knowledgable.

I think it might be time to hijack the thread.

How 'bout them Red Sox!

You play the victim so well. :rolleyes:

Probably when he meets the other coaches at the watering hole and talks about how bad the refs are, too.

If your a parent thats trying to attend practice you can take your son because you'll be nothing but a headache.

Well, maybe you should do a better job of gauging the temperature of the water. All of us officials recognized the sarcasm in JR's "Bad, Bad..." comment.

Who said anything about attending practice?

Please don't tell me you teach reading comprehension...

Mixed metaphor, did mean to say chum?

How about "it's snowballing like a house on fire"

That would be you're. Where was it mentioned that I'd want to attend a practice?

I'm still trying to get a sense of what level you're coaching that this nonsense would be working? 5th grade house league perhaps?

You aren't a shark in the water - you're the chum. We're the sharks! :D

more like a chum....:)

Tempting suggestion. I bet a few of you could do a real number on this thread.

As I stated earlier I learned it at a when Skip Prosser was discussing his full court defensive philosophy. Just somthing I picked up along the way. I started off as a college assistant and am now a high school varsity coach.

First one to point out my error gets a gold star!!!

They were illegal - logos were too big

Don't you mean errors....

Should be Skip Town, not Prosser.

I'm almost starting to like you fiasco.

The part where you say you are now a coach?

Or should I say. I'm almost starting to not not like you.