Starters "supplied" to scorer?

[slow whistle]

Sat night BV I am R. So I go over with around 11 mins left in pre-game to check books. They are not ready, but I ask the official scorer if he has everything that he needs, he says yes he is just copying. Fine, so we go get captains and do pre-game. I get back over to check the book now there is around 7 minutes left. I go to check the home team and see that they have no starters checked so I ask the official scorer and he says "oh yeah it is usually the top 5" (of course the V scorer is sitting right there listening attentively). A home assistant is standing nearby and hears the discussion so he chimes in, "It is ALWAYS the top 5 for us". So I check the top 5 and move along. My question though is what does the H team have to do to satisfy the requirement of "supplying the scorer" with the starters? Should the HC or an assistant actually be transcribing names/numbers/starters into the official book, or is it appropriate to rely on the scorer to do so from say, last night's game? And if so are they then on the hook if the scorer has a brain lapse like this?

[Adam]

Seems to me this is good enough in this situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Sat night BV I am R. So I go over with around 11 mins left in pre-game to check books. They are not ready, but I ask the official scorer if he has everything that he needs, he says yes he is just copying. Fine, so we go get captains and do pre-game. I get back over to check the book now there is around 7 minutes left. I go to check the home team and see that they have no starters checked so I ask the official scorer and he says "oh yeah it is usually the top 5" (of course the V scorer is sitting right there listening attentively). A home assistant is standing nearby and hears the discussion so he chimes in, "It is ALWAYS the top 5 for us". So I check the top 5 and move along. My question though is what does the H team have to do to satisfy the requirement of "supplying the scorer" with the starters? Should the HC or an assistant actually be transcribing names/numbers/starters into the official book, or is it appropriate to rely on the scorer to do so from say, last night's game? And if so are they then on the hook if the scorer has a brain lapse like this?

Were you the R or the assistant scorer?

The only requirement by rule is that that name and number of each team member and who the 5 starters are have be given to the scorer at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time. It's now the scorer's job to correctly enter that info into the book. If the info gets wrongly entered by the scorer, it is NOT a team technical foul. It is a scorer's mistake and you can't penalize a team for that mistake. You simply get the book changed.

That part of your job was done at the 11-minute mark after the scorer told you that he had all of the info and was copying it. That's all that you need to know and there's now no reason to hang around the scorer. Just make sure at around the 1-3 minute mark that the scorer is set to go. If not, give him the extra time that he might need. And please don't do the scorer's job for him. What do you do if you mistakenly check a wrong starter's number? Is it still a bookkeeping mistake if the official makes it?

JMO.....

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Were you the R or the assistant scorer?

The only requirement by rule is that that name and number of each team member and who the 5 starters are have be given to the scorer at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time. It's now the scorer's job to correctly enter that info into the book. If the info gets wrongly entered by the scorer, it is NOT a team technical foul. It is a scorer's mistake and you can't penalize a team for that mistake. You simply get the book changed.

That part of your job was done at the 11-minute mark after the scorer told you that he had all of the info and was copying it. That's all that you need to know and there's now no reason to hang around the scorer. Just make sure at around the 1-3 minute mark that the scorer is set to go. If not, give him the extra time that he might need. And please don't do the scorer's job for him. What do you do if you mistakenly check a wrong starter's number? Is it still a bookkeeping mistake if the official makes it?

JMO.....

I agree with you completely, however, my only question is what does it even mean to "supply" the scorer with the information when you are the home team? In this case they didn't supply him with anything because they assumed he already knew based on precedent. I guess what I'm asking is, is that enough? Agree I probably shouldn't have checked the starters, but since I was checking book anyway I did with scorer watching. To your point, I don't think I'll do that again though.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Sat night BV I am R. So I go over with around 11 mins left in pre-game to check books. They are not ready, but I ask the official scorer if he has everything that he needs, he says yes he is just copying. Fine, so we go get captains and do pre-game. I get back over to check the book now there is around 7 minutes left. ?

A little off topic....but....a 4 minute pregame?!?!: I'd run out of things to say.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

A little off topic....but....a 4 minute pregame?!?!: I'd run out of things to say.

Come on already, I said "around 11 mins", went over checked ball, checked operation of arrow, introduced myself to scorers/timer, got captains/coaches, did quick pre-game and went back to book at "around 7 mins"- trust me my actual pre-game w/ captains/coaches is shorter than about 90% of the guys I work with.

[Wellmer]

My question is this. You say as long as its given to the scorer correctly and its discovered later, how are you going to determine if its a scorerkeepers error or if they were just given wrong information? How would that be verified?

[Adam]

Typically, ask the scorer where they got the info. The obvious example is if they were given the visitors' book to copy. If it's a transcription error, the visitors' book would be accurate. make the change and move on.

If the scorer says she got it out of the game program, and the program is accurate, same deal.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Come on already, I said "around 11 mins", went over checked ball, checked operation of arrow, introduced myself to scorers/timer, got captains/coaches, did quick pre-game and went back to book at "around 7 mins"- trust me my actual pre-game w/ captains/coaches is shorter than about 90% of the guys I work with.

yeah, I was just giving you crap. Couldn't stop myself.

[Wellmer]

Its pretty cut and dry in Nebraska. The coaches are asked at the pregame if the players are fully equipped and everything is correct in the book. If they answer yes and it's later determined that there was an error, there's no going back. Some coaches have even intialed the scorebook to show that they have actually checked it.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I agree with you completely, however, my only question is what does it even mean to "supply" the scorer with the information when you are the home team? In this case they didn't supply him with anything because they assumed he already knew based on precedent. I guess what I'm asking is, is that enough? Agree I probably shouldn't have checked the starters, but since I was checking book anyway I did with scorer watching. To your point, I don't think I'll do that again though.

In my opinion, NFHS should clarify exactly what "supply" means. It does NOT require anything to be in writing. 3-2-1 states:
SECTION 2 ROSTERS, STARTERS, NUMBERS
ART. 1 . . . At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team
shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty).

I think that the solution is simple. Define "supply" to mean require teams to provide a printed list of all players with numbers and starters properly listed. This would eliminate any confusion. Many may recall a thread dealing with a verbal "supplying" of information that differed from a mainly written/printed list of information. This would also eliminate what some could perceive as an advantage for the home team since the home team can currently say just aboiut whatever they would like -- such as the case in the original OP.

This would also simplify our jobs as referees. We would be responsible for verifying that the supplied list is at the table for both teams rather than being particularly concerned with the actual book that may or may not be completed.

Our largest assignor wants us to check the book at the 12 minute mark to ensure that we can alleviate any "problems" prior to the 10 minute mark.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I agree with you completely, however, my only question is what does it even mean to "supply" the scorer with the information when you are the home team? In this case they didn't supply him with anything because they assumed he already knew based on precedent. I guess what I'm asking is, is that enough?

The visiting team has to supply the scorer with that information. That usually means something on paper that can be copied. If the visiting team didn't supply the scorer with any info, then the onus certainly isn't on the scorer or the R. It's solely on the visiting team. Assuming that the scorer knew is not a defense that the visiting team can use either. Sooooo, if the wrong info does get entered, it's the fault of the visiting team and they should get a team technical foul charged to them.

Unless I read your original post wrong, those circumstances are completely different. If a scorer tells me that he has everything he needs at around the 10-minute mark, I usually just take him at his word.

In this case, you were doing your job properly imo. If you can avert having to call an administrative "T", great. And you did that by making sure that the visitors properly complied with the rule.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

yeah, I was just giving you crap. Couldn't stop myself.

I know - you hit a nerve because there are few things worse than working with someone for the first time, walking into the captains/coaches meeting and they start with "black line all the way around". Gonna be a loooong night after that!

[wanja]

Specifically asking the scorer to identify starters before the 10 minute mark is good preventive officiating. I always require the scorer to mark the starters in the book. Seems simple enough. Any objections?