How bad does this look?
 

3 man, Girls Varsity.

Good game to the end of the first half. 31-29. I am the R. We had a very good ( my opinion ) pre game. Evaluator in the stands, we know it.

Visitors take a 20 point lead in the 4th quarter. With 35 seconds left in the game, from the lead, I call a foul on home team #30. Table tells me it is her 5th foul. I go to the coach and tell him, he turns to a player for replacement. I tell the table to start the 20 second clock, I turn to tell #30 that it's her 5th foul, but the sub comes to the table and I beckon the sub into the game. I turn and tell my partner 2 shots.

We shot one shot and the players jump in for the rebound. I blow and say " that was 2 shots" Partner comes to me and says " we already shot this first one, that was the second".....We get it right and go to P.O.I and give it back to home who rebounded the ball.

How bad did we look? Over all, we had a very good game for 31 minutes plus.

Huh? They shot the first while your back was turned and you were taking care of business :confused:

I dont get why they would have shot the first one, when there was a disqualification? Where were you looking to allow this? And what were your partners doing?

Before the "second" shot, you didn't hear your partner yell "one shot" or whatever?

Yes. When we went to shot the shoot that I thought was the first, but was the second, I was closer to the table and partner is not a loud person, so I did not hear him say " One"

It is a 94' floor and large gym with a crowd of about 250.

After I reported the foul, table told me " That's 5" I went to the coach, away from where we were shooting, So I am about 55 feet from the basket that we are shooting at. it all happened in about 15 seconds from the time I reported the foul, to tell the coach, to getting the sub into the game.

1. It looks bad that your partner didn't look at you before administering the FT.
2. It looks bad that the C didn't notice either.
3. This is a good secondary reason to have your partner inform the coach that it's the 5th foul.

I hope the evaluator had a dull pencil:eek:

So, I am near the table because I report the foul and they tell me " that's 5" And I should turn away from the table, go to my partner, tell him, " that's 5 on #30" and have him go to the coach and say " That's 5 coach"?

To me that slows the game down.

No, we got it pretty good after the game. You wouldn't have wanted to be in the room. you really wouldn't have wanted to be outside of the door.....

I always inform my partner(s) before doing the coach/timer/player sequence. No rush.

It keeps the coaches from retaliating against the 5th-foul-calling official.

+1

The official who reports the foul should handle the DQ/sub.

Live and learn...don't let it happen again...you will pregame the heck of a disqualified players before your next game.

I know this is the mechanic Snaq, but in reality how practical is this in some cases? You go to the table to report a lot of times the scorer is already looking at you when you get there with the "five" up. Are you walking away from the table to go tell one of your partners (who are either lining up for free throw or inbounds) that you have five fouls, go tell the coach? It seems like most times if I come to the table I end up informing the coach just to keep things moving.

That's what the Fed recommends you do. However, what did you pre-game for DQ'd players?

1. It prevents the situation you had.
2. I believe it's the mechanic, it used to be anyway.
3. Switching on fouls slows the game down, too, but we still do that.
4. As mentioned, it difuses a potentially hostile situation.

Just my human nature, everyone goes for rebound, both your partners do nothing, I'm thinking I missed something, as I always think I screwed up. The few extra seconds to take stock of the situation might have saved you.

I'm not a big voice guy, but always visibly in any position raise arm for number of shots to partners. As lead last year raised two fingers as C toots and says "one" Thank you very much, Mr C

Okay, in reading, apparently it's an optional mechanic. In practice, I've gotten away from it. This situation just reminded me that I'd gone away from this lately. Here's the kicker, I've been in the OP situation before, but without an evaluator. I've learned this lesson the hard way.

At the very least, turn and tell your partners immediately; otherwise you'll have a sub coming in during a live ball and some officials will tell you that you should call the T. :)

You can bet I'll make sure this gets brought up in my pre-game tonight.

Bingo. I think it's very important for all officials to show how many shots. However, in your example, it wouldn't have prevented them from already shooting the first shot, it would have saved the AW. As soon as L and C put up 1 and you as T put up 2, tweet-tweet.... and you could have figured it out.

Something to think about...

While it was something that no one in the stands probably thought looked bad. Anyone who knew exactly what was going on probably thought it did...but I couldn't consider it something so bad that it ruined your game. Just a valuable learning experience.

+1.........additionally after notification, I may choose to switch with C to get out of dodge. The time between FTs can seem like a two hour college lecture when you just fouled coach's 'star'

Just goes to prove that the saying is true - you can earn 1000 attaboys but one solitary "oh sh!t" erases them all.

As I'm sure most of us can admit - been there, done that.

To me, yelling and screaming is stupid. Good time for a teaching moment, yes. If an evaluator can't get their point across without being an overbearing jerk, they should find someone who can.

The real problem was the L administering the FT while the T was still occupied with the DQ. Of course, that's why all 3 officials should be signaling the number of shots to each other before EACH shot.

Perhaps he was an ex coach. Why would he be yelling?? Silly.

I'm not sure if I like it or not. Informing the coach yourself gives you the opportunity to give a QUICK explanation which they are often looking for on a 5th foul and then inform the timer to start the clock - or better yet inform the timer to start the clock and THEN give a quick explanation. If it becomes heated you can always get out of there after, but at least the coach is on the clock. If you go get one of your partners to tell the coach, you are really giving them another 10 seconds or so to sub which effectively becomes a 30 second time out. Now to your point and that in the OP, you DEFINITELY want to pre-game this and make sure your partners know what is going on. If your partners are worth a damn they should not administer when you have your back to the floor EVER!

When the reporting official goes table side on this, he usually just turns around. The L could easily just glance and see him in position, looking towards the bench and think everything is Kosher. Mistakes happen.

I think the mechanic was put in place to difuse things, but to me the real benefit is ensuring the game isn't continued while your back is turned.

A. More communication between the partners. More eye contact, more talk, more signals.

B. Even if no communication, L should have seen you at the table and held the FT admin. All three whistles need to be more aware of the whole floor.

C. Evaluator needs to not yell, especially about something that un-impact-ful. Yea, it looks bad, but it was small, had no effect on the game, and you all still learned a lesson. Definitely not worth a temper tantrum.

You don't have to go all the way to your partner and get face-to-face. Just turn and make sure you have his attention so he knows not to administer the FT. Give him the quick "five" sign or at least a "hold" sign so he knows to hold up.

If there's a time to slow the game down, it's when you have to take care of an administrative procedure.

Your partner obviously wasn't confirming with you on the shots before administering.

All that said, I've been in games where partners want to make an effort to "speed up the game". While I'm all for hustling to position and not lolly-gagging administrative stuff, this often leads to these types of problems. If you and your partners have, several times before in the game, administered free throws before making eye contact with the reporting official, there was no reason for them to wait for you this time. What did you do to tell them it was different?

There are lots of times we can hustle and take care of business quickly. There are a few times when slowing the game down is critical. There is never a time to get in such a big hurry that both or all three partners aren't on the same page.

Right.

If it's "fouling at the end of the game to stop the clock and everyone knows it", then let the calling official handle it.

If it's "a close block/charge" and the calling official has alreadyhad words with the coach, let another official handle it.

It's up to the calling official to decide.

And, either way, all officials need to know what is going on before anyone else is told. This applies to 5th fouls, bonus, lenght of time outs, what happens after the TO is granted , ....

Was your partner's frosty malt beverage getting warm on something for them to be a rush? :D

Can't speak to the NF mechanics, under FIBA 3-person once the calling official is done reporting the foul, they are to take the TRAIL position opposite the table which then leaves the new CENTER official table side to administer subs / time out requests and 5th foul situations. By using the proper procedure it eliminates the chance that something like this could occur.

If I was the calling official in your snitch...

- I'd report the foul
- if the table informs me that it's the player 5th, I'll tell my closest partner and take my new position as Trail opposite.
- Partner informs player & coach
- Partner adminsiters the sub and any time out requests

You'd made a comment that following the procedure outlined in your mechanics manual "slows the game down." Didn't you just slow the game down by blowing your whistle to kill the play just to give the ball back to the same team?

Once again, I do not claim to know the correct NF procedure for informing the coach regarding a player's 5th foul. Here we do not "go to" the coach. We just tell them from a position on the floor that the player has been disqualified. The delay in resuming the game is just getting the player replaced.

I'm the evaluation chair for our local association and if I ever heard one of my evaluators go off on a crew like I can only imagine from your post. They would not be working for me anymore.

If I was observing your game, I'd only ask each of your crew 3 questions...

Terrapins Fan - Why did you not use the proper procedure to inform the coach and player that they've fouled out?

New Lead - Why are you rushing through the FT when it was pretty obvious that Terrapins Fan was not ready?

New Center (assuming you're using the FIBA mechanics) - Why did you not tell new lead to hold up and wait for Terrapins Fan to be ready?

You could always look at it this way. "If that's the only thing we screwed up to get grilled on in the whole game, we must of done a good job."

My 2 cents.

It's like this little cartoon my daughter used to watch a few years ago -- a bunny called Miffy. The moral of the story frequently was "when you rush everything goes wrong." True a lot in officiating.

You are not there to give a quick explanation. You are there to inform the coach. Plus, why does it seem when a player gets disqualified the official walks all the way up to the table? :confused:

I call a foul. I report the foul from the reporting area. Table notifies me that the player has 5 fouls....first thing I do is turn to my partner(s) and communicate "5 fouls" (verbally and/or non-verbally)--it takes 2 seconds to do that.....THEN I approach the coach and notify him of the disqualification......

And on those rare occasions where I don't want to do the notification I will walk towards the slot official and say "let the coach know ## has 5 fouls".