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-   -   When does a 52-51 victory go into the books as a 59-57 overtime loss? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56451-when-does-52-51-victory-go-into-books-59-57-overtime-loss.html)

chseagle Thu Jan 14, 2010 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 651718)
Tell them that whatever AP device you use could malfunction as early as tonight.

Well, if Rookiedude does the JV or C-Squad game in the secondary gym, will see what is used as an AP device...A handmade wooden arrow that spins around. So there are times the arrow gets flipped around due to the table getting bumped.

In the main gym, the AP is a light box on the scorers' table.

I, however, also keep track of the AP using the scoreboard when I'm scoreboard/timer, in case the AP device does malfunction.

Jurassic Referee Thu Jan 14, 2010 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chseagle (Post 651724)
Well, if Rookiedude does the JV or C-Squad game in the secondary gym, will see what is used as an AP device....

Rookiedude ain't a rookie. Far from it. I think that it's safe to say that you'll see him in the main gym. :)

Nevadaref Thu Jan 14, 2010 09:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 651650)
Looks like the officials did it the right way, given what they had to work with.

From reading the article, I'm going to disagree, but I'll ask Bob for clarification since it was his game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 651668)
While I wasn't the R, I was on the game. The R did go over to the table before OT and had a long (but not long enough, or else too long) conversation.

Bob, from the article it seems that the home book had the proper number of points for the home team in regulation, namely 52. I assume that this was the official book, and thus the official score. The fact that the scoreboard and the visiting book incorrectly displayed 51 shouldn't matter, right?
So it seems that what was done during the extra period was that the scoreboard and the visiting book were changed to reflect what was already in the home/official book. If that is the case, and the official book was NOT changed at that point, then I would say that the game should have been terminated at that point. This is different from changing the official book at some point in OT, which would cause the game to continue. In your case, had I been the R, I would have declared the home team the winner in regulation and filed a report with the state association/league.

Can you clarify exactly what took place, even though you were not the R?

StripesOhio Thu Jan 14, 2010 09:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 651673)
Brings up a point...

When I'm R, at halftime, and towards the end of the game when I get a chance to get over there I ask the official scorer: "Is everything ok with the book?"

Is that all I can do? Could I ask a better question? What do you ask?

EVERY time I'm at the table in the fourth quarter (and also at halftime) I say,

"Running score and fouls, ok?"

I've never had a problem.

Adam Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 651811)
From reading the article, I'm going to disagree, but I'll ask Bob for clarification since it was his game.


Bob, from the article it seems that the home book had the proper number of points for the home team in regulation, namely 52. I assume that this was the official book, and thus the official score. The fact that the scoreboard and the visiting book incorrectly displayed 51 shouldn't matter, right?
So it seems that what was done during the extra period was that the scoreboard and the visiting book were changed to reflect what was already in the home/official book. If that is the case, and the official book was NOT changed at that point, then I would say that the game should have been terminated at that point. This is different from changing the official book at some point in OT, which would cause the game to continue. In your case, had I been the R, I would have declared the home team the winner in regulation and filed a report with the state association/league.

Can you clarify exactly what took place, even though you were not the R?

I didn't read it that closely, but good point.

chseagle Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 651731)
Rookiedude ain't a rookie. Far from it. I think that it's safe to say that you'll see him in the main gym. :)

However there's no guarantee I'll be in the main gym.

knockitoff Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:34pm

OT: 63-62 Becomes 71-77
 
Here's another one from this past Friday here in Metro Detroit...

Romeo wins basketball game; Dakota to protest - The Macomb Daily Sports > Preps: Breaking news coverage for Macomb County, Michigan

Haven't heard how far the losing team actually went with their "protest".

Nevadaref Fri Jan 15, 2010 04:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by knockitoff (Post 651827)
Here's another one from this past Friday here in Metro Detroit...

Romeo wins basketball game; Dakota to protest - The Macomb Daily Sports > Preps: Breaking news coverage for Macomb County, Michigan

Haven't heard how far the losing team actually went with their "protest".

I wonder if someone removed a jersey during the celebration. http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/fo...stirthepot.gif

Jurassic Referee Fri Jan 15, 2010 06:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by knockitoff (Post 651827)
Here's another one from this past Friday here in Metro Detroit...

Romeo wins basketball game; Dakota to protest - The Macomb Daily Sports > Preps: Breaking news coverage for Macomb County, Michigan

Haven't heard how far the losing team actually went with their "protest".

And another one where you have to talk to the officials involved to know the whole story before coming to any conclusions......but until then the officials should get any benefit of the doubt(if there is any doubt).

If there was unsporting behavior post-game by any of the Dakota players/coaches, as some of the bloggers suggested, then it was a righteous call. And big ups to the officials for having the 'nads to call it. There sureasheck is rules backing and direction for calling a "T" for unsporting behavior after time expired, as in case book plays 5.6.2SitF&G. Now if it was just the Dakota fans though.....

Jurassic Referee Fri Jan 15, 2010 06:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 651874)
I wonder if someone removed a jersey during the celebration.

Naw, that couldn't be the call. The game was played in Michigan, not Nevada. :D

Jurassic Referee Fri Jan 15, 2010 07:30am

Late technical foul burns Dakota | detnews.com | The Detroit News

The MHSSAA said "excessive celebration and taunting" and "..some pushing and shoving did occur..".

You reap what you sow.

'Nuff said......good job by the officials.

johnnyrao Fri Jan 15, 2010 08:26am

What I like about the article Bob posted is that usually these articles rip the officials for being responsible. An unfortunate situation, but I like the fact that the author doesn't fix blame on anyone in particular. I'm sure the coach who actually had 52 at the end of regulation is re-thinking who keeps the scorebook and maybe even the responsibilities of the asst. coaches at the end of close games. As far as the official book never changing, great point but I am not sure it matters. Isn't the rule that once the OT begins, it must be played regardless of what else comes?

grunewar Fri Jan 15, 2010 08:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 651673)
Brings up a point...

When I'm R, at halftime, and towards the end of the game when I get a chance to get over there I ask the official scorer: "Is everything ok with the book?"

Is that all I can do? Could I ask a better question? What do you ask?

I do something similar to this. Last night as the R, I went to the table and asked each one of them - V Book, H Book, and scorer - "Everything OK?" I got the nods of the head.

I like the extra "Everyone have the same for score, fouls, and possession?" May start to use it.

Welpe Fri Jan 15, 2010 09:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 651892)
I like the extra "Everyone have the same for score, fouls, and possession?" May start to use it.

I used this line last night during the 8th grade games I was doing (in a gym that must've been from the 50's by the way) and both scorers looked at me like I was insane. :rolleyes:

jdw3018 Fri Jan 15, 2010 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by knockitoff (Post 651827)
Here's another one from this past Friday here in Metro Detroit...

Romeo wins basketball game; Dakota to protest - The Macomb Daily Sports > Preps: Breaking news coverage for Macomb County, Michigan

Haven't heard how far the losing team actually went with their "protest".

Someone should just read a rules book if the coach actually means what he says here...;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach
"The only question that needs to be answered is whether a foul can be assessed after time has expired," Snyder said.

Regardless, it would certainly be interesting to talk to the crew and see some video from that one. I do think there are some things to be learned from discussing the situation in general.

One thing I took from the article is that if (and it's a big if) what the coach is saying the officials told him is accurate, it's a lesson that in a situation as controversial as that we should be as clear and descriptive about why we've taken action as possible. Explanations like "excessive celebration" isn't a rule book term and isn't very descriptive of what particular actions an official is penalizing.

Sounds like someone may have booted the ball, but they may not have known who. An explanation of "#34 kicked the ball in a punting fashion into the seats" is an example that a coach will have a hard time arguing with.

On a rules note, if more than one player was involved in an unsporting action, shouldn't they have assessed multiple technical fouls? And, is there any provision that would allow a team technical for unsporting behavior?


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