When does a 52-51 victory go into the books as a 59-57 overtime loss?
 

See Daily Herald's Basketball Focus 2009 | St. Charles East loses in strange fashion

Interesting. Bob, was this your game?

Looks like the officials did it the right way, given what they had to work with.

I try to make a habit to ask the official scorer to triple check their math before the ball is tipped for overtime. That way, if a discrepancy is found, you don't run into this situation halfway through overtime.

That would have prevented the error in this situation.

Yeah, but then you would have had a different problem. You would have had to inform one team that while they thought they were heading to overtime, the game is over and they lose.

Have them triple check the score at some point in that last minute, so you avoid it even sooner.

While I wasn't the R, I was on the game. The R did go over to the table before OT and had a long (but not long enough, or else too long) conversation.

Sounds like poor communication between the scorebooks, scoreboard/timer, & officials.

Just my 1 cent.

Brings up a point...

When I'm R, at halftime, and towards the end of the game when I get a chance to get over there I ask the official scorer: "Is everything ok with the book?"

Is that all I can do? Could I ask a better question? What do you ask?

Do you all three (h book, v book, scoreboard person) agree about fouls, points, possession arrow?"

This is what I ask in games that are anywhere near close.

Juulie,

Not always are personal fouls tracked by the scoreboard, sometimes it's just team fouls that are tracked.

Should it be mandatory that both personal & team fouls be tracked by both scorebook & scoreboard? Or just stay with team fouls tracked?

Not always do the scorebooks keep track of the possession arrow.

It's not mandatory that fouls are kept on the scoreboard. As an official, I prefer it, though.

The scorer should track the A/P. It's one of their duties and is in fact not a duty of the timer. The scorer is responsible for the arrow at the table.

I know that the timer's not responsible for the A/P, as it's the scorer's responsibility, however the games where I'm timer, the scorer never keeps track of the A/P :( Even when I mention to them they need to keep track of it.

Tell them that whatever AP device you use could malfunction as early as tonight.

Make a bet with them on how many times it'll be used during the game.

Well, if Rookiedude does the JV or C-Squad game in the secondary gym, will see what is used as an AP device...A handmade wooden arrow that spins around. So there are times the arrow gets flipped around due to the table getting bumped.

In the main gym, the AP is a light box on the scorers' table.

I, however, also keep track of the AP using the scoreboard when I'm scoreboard/timer, in case the AP device does malfunction.

Rookiedude ain't a rookie. Far from it. I think that it's safe to say that you'll see him in the main gym. :)

From reading the article, I'm going to disagree, but I'll ask Bob for clarification since it was his game.

Bob, from the article it seems that the home book had the proper number of points for the home team in regulation, namely 52. I assume that this was the official book, and thus the official score. The fact that the scoreboard and the visiting book incorrectly displayed 51 shouldn't matter, right?
So it seems that what was done during the extra period was that the scoreboard and the visiting book were changed to reflect what was already in the home/official book. If that is the case, and the official book was NOT changed at that point, then I would say that the game should have been terminated at that point. This is different from changing the official book at some point in OT, which would cause the game to continue. In your case, had I been the R, I would have declared the home team the winner in regulation and filed a report with the state association/league.

Can you clarify exactly what took place, even though you were not the R?

EVERY time I'm at the table in the fourth quarter (and also at halftime) I say,

"Running score and fouls, ok?"

I've never had a problem.

I didn't read it that closely, but good point.

However there's no guarantee I'll be in the main gym.

OT: 63-62 Becomes 71-77
 

Here's another one from this past Friday here in Metro Detroit...

Romeo wins basketball game; Dakota to protest - The Macomb Daily Sports > Preps: Breaking news coverage for Macomb County, Michigan

Haven't heard how far the losing team actually went with their "protest".

I wonder if someone removed a jersey during the celebration. http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/fo...stirthepot.gif

And another one where you have to talk to the officials involved to know the whole story before coming to any conclusions......but until then the officials should get any benefit of the doubt(if there is any doubt).

If there was unsporting behavior post-game by any of the Dakota players/coaches, as some of the bloggers suggested, then it was a righteous call. And big ups to the officials for having the 'nads to call it. There sureasheck is rules backing and direction for calling a "T" for unsporting behavior after time expired, as in case book plays 5.6.2SitF&G. Now if it was just the Dakota fans though.....

Naw, that couldn't be the call. The game was played in Michigan, not Nevada. :D

Late technical foul burns Dakota | detnews.com | The Detroit News

The MHSSAA said "excessive celebration and taunting" and "..some pushing and shoving did occur..".

You reap what you sow.

'Nuff said......good job by the officials.

What I like about the article Bob posted is that usually these articles rip the officials for being responsible. An unfortunate situation, but I like the fact that the author doesn't fix blame on anyone in particular. I'm sure the coach who actually had 52 at the end of regulation is re-thinking who keeps the scorebook and maybe even the responsibilities of the asst. coaches at the end of close games. As far as the official book never changing, great point but I am not sure it matters. Isn't the rule that once the OT begins, it must be played regardless of what else comes?

I do something similar to this. Last night as the R, I went to the table and asked each one of them - V Book, H Book, and scorer - "Everything OK?" I got the nods of the head.

I like the extra "Everyone have the same for score, fouls, and possession?" May start to use it.

I used this line last night during the 8th grade games I was doing (in a gym that must've been from the 50's by the way) and both scorers looked at me like I was insane. :rolleyes:

Someone should just read a rules book if the coach actually means what he says here...;)

Regardless, it would certainly be interesting to talk to the crew and see some video from that one. I do think there are some things to be learned from discussing the situation in general.

One thing I took from the article is that if (and it's a big if) what the coach is saying the officials told him is accurate, it's a lesson that in a situation as controversial as that we should be as clear and descriptive about why we've taken action as possible. Explanations like "excessive celebration" isn't a rule book term and isn't very descriptive of what particular actions an official is penalizing.

Sounds like someone may have booted the ball, but they may not have known who. An explanation of "#34 kicked the ball in a punting fashion into the seats" is an example that a coach will have a hard time arguing with.

On a rules note, if more than one player was involved in an unsporting action, shouldn't they have assessed multiple technical fouls? And, is there any provision that would allow a team technical for unsporting behavior?

At the end of regulation, the running score in the book was 51-51. When the details were added up, they totaled 52. The scorer confirmed that she "filled in the circle" for a FT, but didn't put it in the running totals.

The visitors book was kept by a kid (looked like a freshman) at the end of the bench, and was a mess -- not much use in reconciling).

The totalling the details didn't happen (or conclude) until about 1 minute into OT. The scorekeeper blames the late totals and the missed score on a "member of the media" who was yapping at the table near the end of the game. (Maybe, and this is speculation, he was yapping about the score.)

Bzzzzzzzzt....


5-7-4

Case book clarifies that, whether or not the score is changed or not changed, once the ball becomes live you have to play out the extra period.

Careful, partner, neither one of those plays involves the book correctly having one team leading at the end of regulation as Nevada was assuming (incorrectly it turns out) happened in Bob's game.

Personally, in Nevada's hypothetical, I'd be inclined to finish the overtime and let the state sort out the results later.

Agreed. I definitely see Nevada's point, and I even think I lean toward agreeing, but I'd be happy to finish the OT and allow the teams to work it out with the state if the results were different.

It seems to me that the intent of the rule is pretty clear. Once you start overtime, you play overtime. If anything, this prevents a scorekeeper from going in and adding a point and saying "actually, the book was right at the end of regulation."

I'm playing on.

Isn't the running score up top the "official" score? It was incorrect at the end of regulation. It was reconciled during the OT period.

Common sense application of 5-7-4 is that you continue with the overtime.

Official scorer gets fired shortly afterwards......;)

Called correctly. See the RULING in case book play 10.4.4SitB. If similar multiple infractions occur at approximately the same time, you charge one team "T" and an indirect "T" to the head coach. That is one situation where you can have an indirect "T" assessed along with a team "T".

Thanks for the cite, JR.

You're Welcome ...
 

Fixed it for you (in red).