JUCO misery
 

Boys JUCO. Close game - 1-2 point differential all night. Good game overall.

But - working with two others I did not know at all. Called by AD at noon to do game that night. I learned in pregame that the crew I had been assigned to had only done 2 person womens games and this was their first 3 person. I was told that I was going to be U2. Ok..... Do I need to say more! :(
Positioning, switching etc were, AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Early in game Team A HC gets T after being out of box and getting a little personal with partner over a call. No more problems after the T. Late in 4th qtr team B requests and is granted TO. After the warning horn #3 checks in at table and is not waved onto court. Players return to court. Lead counts players and administers ball for inbound pass.

Team A has ball deflected and there is a scramble. A2 gets ball sitting in paint. At this point Coach Team B runs onto court by trail trying to get his attention and yelling that A had 6 players on court. Trail hits whistle! HC team B is demanding that Team A's coach be given a Class A -T and be DQ'd. However, the intitial whistle was from trail for him being on court screaming without being beckoned. Wow - now he is just a little upset. :rolleyes:

Crew gets together and confer. Yes, upon counting, team A did suddenly have 6 on the court. Sometime after partner counted and gave ball to A1 for throw-in and the scramble for deflected pass, #3 entered the court on his own. Table and team A HC confirm. So ........ HC team A was given a class B - T for #3 entering court w/o being beckoned causing 6 players from team A to be on court. Team A #3 given class B - T for entering court without being beckoned making 6 players for team A. HC - team B given a Class B - T for entering court w/o permission. Free throws follow.

Coach team B then requests and is granted TO. Following TO - team A is given ball at POI (I really had to fight for this - as they were going to give ball to team B at division line) - in this case the endline, lane line extended as A2 was holding ball sitting in paint when whistle sounded. Now Coach team B wants his TO back - because he thought his team should be getting ball. Was told that once the TO had been granted - there is nothing in place for him to get it back even if he had not yet already used it.

Team A inbounds, misses attempt and loses by 1.

Oh yeah, table crew was 18 yr old college kids and were a nightmare all by themselves.


Got home - no fermented malt beverages in fridge. :(

This am - the "crew leader" called me to do another game with them. I respectfully declined - already busy that night thank heavens. My head still swimming this morning. How do you get over an evening like this and get sharp for tonights game?

Three Person for First Time ? ? ?
 

:eek:

How in red, white, and blue blazes do 3 person first-timers get assigned to JUCO over there? :confused:
Shucks, I used to be WIAA and WISAA registered back in the '70's and would be happy to swim across the lake to do 3 person JUCO with you. When it freezes I can just walk. Let me know and I'll get the wetsuit on! :)

bananas and milk blended.

I'd rather have grade school to Frosh than older teens doing the table. Heck I'd rather have a kindergartner

I do games their with my crew and just made the assumption when called, that this crew was also experienced. I've not had any other problems with this AD. If asked to join another crew at last minute again - I will be sure to ask!

Hey, I'm just across the cheddar curtain, have the shirt, and I'll provide cold beverages...........give me a jingle!

After the pregame bombshell - I wish I could have called. I knew I was in deep doo when I wanted to talk about rotations and got the blond deer in the headlights look, and then the one guys says - "we just switch normally" and it was too late to back out.

It really bothers me that they even took the game without ever doing 3 person. It never dawned on me that someone would actually work at that level without ANY 3 person experience, camps etc. It's one I know I have to let go - but still bothers me because of all the things I know should have been better - and it was such an evenly matched game.

Do you honestly feel like the game would have been that close with an experienced crew? It may not have been.

Why didn't you talk fast and insist on going through a good pregame? I think this is where your leadership comes in and lifts the crew. If they asked you back they realize you are good enough to do the game and they want to work with you. I see it as an opportunity to see 1) college-level plays and 2) help another official get better.

You mentioned this situation happening in the 4th quarter. ?????

An Atrocious Admixture
 

You committed a huge mixing of metaphors here, but somehow I like it. :p

They were not even going to have a pregame. I insisted on it. They game would more than likely have been close even with my normal crew. When they played the first time the game went into OT with the opposite team winning on last second 3pt shot. Two very evenly matched teams at all positions. I would not want to work another game at this level with these officials until they have had an opportunity to attend a camp/clinic or at the very least have some experience at lower levels with 3 person. I would be happy to do lower level games as long as we were able to have a pregame and they would listen/learn some of the terminolgy and positioning and well as primary and secondary area coverages with 3 person. They went in thinking nothing was different - and didn't want to even discuss these things pregame. That is why I was so frustrated. I don't think they are bad guys but I believe they put themselves in a no win situation and I kind of got stuck at the last second. I have not seen them before and they may very well be great 2 person officials at the JUCO level or any other level. The calls they made were not "bad" calls just out of their area, or areas of no coverage, no rotations - even if I was lead - if I rotated - I was the only one _ even after explaining when I insisted on a pregame. We will fairly often invite someone new to go along and watch us, then include them in frosh/jv games with two of us to get them started. We usually split the 2 person fee 3 ways when we do this and call ahead and get approval from the schools first. Just not at that level the first time w/o doing homework first.

Just curious as to what you think the experience level of the crew has to do with the score? I don't recall ever hearing anything like this.

Too Late To Learn it now
 

Do you think going over 3 person mechanics in a 15 minute pre-game is going to help the crew? I don't. You just confuse them more. I think its too late to learn 3 man when you are about to step out on the floor. That's something that needs to be handled at camps, scrimmages and then work the newbies into some low intense matchups before setting them lose on a more challenging varsity schedule. Definitely not 15 minutes before a JUCO game!

Who made the hilighted decisions? Or are you including these things in the list of things that went wrong?

Actually, that is my point. I don't think an experienced crew would necessarily end up with the same outcome. This crew may have missed a lot of calls that would give one team a comfortable lead or still had a close game. The crew for this game and the fact that the first meeting of these two teams was close do not mean anything.

In 2 person games, the L going strong side is a mechanic. Therefore they would have initiated a rotation for a 3 person crew?

Here's is my discussion of rotation in this scenario:
Rotations for 3 man are similar to 2 man. When L goes opposite, the T needs to step down, the C needs to step up. If you are the T and you see another T, look to see where the L is and adjust accordingly.

Can you show me a quote where I said to teach them 3-man mechanics in 15 minutes? IMO, part of a good pregame is getting comfortable with your partners. During this discussion we can find out things that will help during the game.

I don't recall (virtually) meeting you. Hello, my name is Tom and I'm not your huckleberry.

Seriously, I'm very much aware that 3-man cannot be taught in 15 minutes, but I think something can always be gained from a good pregame. The more the OP knew about his crew the better they could have done. Maybe not in a structured way they were supposed to, but with a higher call accuracy.

Basically - I was watching the scramble from C. I saw A2 sitting on lane line my side when he picked up ball and covered it like FB halfback and was turning his head - IMO - to find an official and yell for TO. Before that could happen the whistle stopped play. R went to T to ask what the whistle was for.

I was watching players - and when they called me to confer everything had been decided - even a division line throw in for B. When I reminded him that in college most T's go to POI except for certain specific situations he got miffed for me saying anything about it. Then R was "thinking about going with a travel on A2" - as he was sitting on ground when whistle went off and said he thought he must have rolled to get that way- so still B ball but different spot. I asked him what he SAW. He finally admitted to not actually seeing that part of the play - and asked me what I actually saw. I told him A2's play was legal and he had possession when whistle stopped play. So POI was A - enline throw in at lane line extended.

That was the extent of what he wanted my input to be. It was like that from the pregame. I did my best and tried to help when possible but they were not really open to much of anything I said.

I'll be honest - at that point I was ready to be the he!! out of there.

Calm Down
 

Your post seemed to me to indicate that a pregame would have helped with 3 man mechanics. I apologize for reading too much into it. However, there is a big difference between a 2 man pre-game and a 3 man pre-game. Must of what you cover in a one does not apply to the other, namely because you are talking about specifics involving the mechanics you will be using. Sure there are things that transfer over. However, I do agree with you that a good pre-game is a must.

Coach A should not have received a Class B technical for a substitute (#3) illegally entering the court. It falls under Article 1 of Class B technicals which only get assessed to the perpetrator.

For one, don't tell me to call down; I thought I followed up some of what I said by "seriously" which meant I wasn't serious in the first place. My pregame and your pregame are obviously different. I'm not giving a 3-man refresher clinic before every game so there is no need to assume that is what I was talking about. The situation is an obstacle. I feel like they could have done something, via a pregame, that would have helped the situation.

Ok
 

My bad! Sorry!

What JUCO location?

Hopefully not the one I'm at tonight. :D

Actually, I know who I'm working with and the assignor and I know they're not 3-person newbies. Been looking at the NFHS/NCAA differences this afternoon, though, and I'm still trying to figure out how they assessed 2 class B technical fouls for having six players on the floor.

Make sure you have the correct number of players at all times and you won't have to worry about it.

Easier said than done, Chief. You'll note that in the OP, they did count and a player entered during live ball to make 6. It happens sometimes.

The interesting part is giving the class B technical to the coach for coming onto the court to alert the officials of the sixth player. One which I find absolutely correct, too.

Yep, and at that point, I think it might be too late to penalize the sixth player. He might have come onto the court after the ball was whistled dead.

You might be issuing a class A technical or two after that decision. :D

True. :)

Yeah, but it doesn't mean he was beckoned. ;)

Right, hit him with a bench T, unless you saw him at the table. That way, the coach gets an indirect.

Wait, I'm on HS now, never mind.

If you mean that the experience level of the crew has no relation to whether the game is close or not, I agree. It semed to me you were implying that an inexperienced crew was more likely to end up with a close game, that missed calls are usually an "equalizer" of some sort. With that I would disagree.

Me too!!

Which he was...remember #3 was denied entry b/c he reported after the 15 horn for the time-out.

I must have lost track.

As asked above...I'm still trying to figure this out. Did you misspeak by chance?

My Juco game tonight was a joy to work. The players were friendly and were more than happy to ask good questions and not give any crap at our answers. Coaches, too. And it was a 3 point game that went down to the last shot (a desperation heave, sure, but a last shot).

No college differences came into play, but I was ready if they did. We had one shot clock horn in the game, but it was just after a kid launched (and buried) a 3 from the top of the key.

Lot of fun. I needed it.