The case against two man
 

This came up in another thread and rather than derail it, I'll start my own:

Last year I came close to a career ending injury working two man. I will never work V games two man again. In JV or lower I can see it, maybe. The crowds are not as thick, the action not as fast, but I ABSOLUTELY HATE having to run on the fast break and look back over my shoulder instead of looking where I am running. All our schools here V is 3 man. Except one cheapo school. I go there for a two man game and have this same fast break situation. I am table side ball coming up my line fast and under pressure keeping me right on the sideline instead of on the court. Next thing I know, I am looking at the ceiling. My knee collided with the forehead of a very stout two year old girl and I landed in an awkward pile on the floor. Game management in this place did nothing to keep fans from walking down that sideline in front of the benches. Somehow, we both wound up okay. It could have been a career ender for me. No more two man. O, and the ball went oob on my line. I think it went off of home, but not sure since I am now looking at the ceiling. I give it to V. Home coach goes nuts. I tell him keep your fans out of the way or don't talk to me about who's ball it is.

Fast forward to this year. Citing "budget concerns", many schools have opted for two man Varsity next year. In Kansas, schools are limited to 20 games per season. Half home, half away. We make $100 for two V games working three man, $115 two man. So school A has ten home nights x 3 officials = 300/night or 3000 a season for officials. Now they go to two man. They have 230/night or 2300/season. They save $700. I 100% GUARANTEE we can call a better game 3 man vs. two man. V games w/ 2 man seem more physical and border on out of control, imo, no matter how hard we work. So to save 700, we get more pissed off coaches, more pissed off fans, and I guarantee taking our third whistle will lead to more injuries, both officials and players. I don't know much about school budgets, but I can't see how $700 is going to break them. Raise the gate $1. Very poor decision by schools. Is anyone else seeing "the economy" force them back to two man?

in your math, did you include both boys and girls games? From what I can tell, you didn't. So that doubles the savings to 1400 a year. I think 1400 dollars for a public school district is a fair amount of money.

They tried to bump the JV down to 2 man in our metro league. We (I use the word loosely) voted to dump on the freshman officials to make up most of the difference.

I'm in Norcal and the vast majority, like 98%, of the games are 2 man. 3 man is only for deep in the playoffs and the little one day show off tourneys.

Refuse to work 2 man at the varsity level here you just won't work. I have 4 Varsity 2 man games this week, its just the way it is here.

I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "watch where you are running." I mean, you know you're supposed to look over your shoulder in 3-person, too, right?

My math is spot on. $50 per game OR the $100 for a BV/GV doubleheader. Do the math either way and it works out to $3000 v. $2300.

I feel bad for those who only get two man. The game is much better when it is called by three. I would like to see a study on player and official injuries in 2 man v. 3 man.

That is what I was thinking too. :confused:

Personally, in 3 man as T moving to L it seems there is much less pressure as I am usually ahead of the action. It's hard to explain I guess. In 3 man being T => L, I can usually get ahead of that play and am in less of a hurry. I've got the new T behind me picking up part of that action as it is right in front of him. In 2 man, I've only got my partner across the court. A loose ball comes out top and toward my line, I've got to be where I can see that action. That turns into a fast break and now I am right along side the players, squeezed between them and the benches. Make sense?

Not really. I'm still not seeing how you can avoid looking over your shoulder while running down the court.

In 2 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. In 3 person, the recommended position for T is about 6 feet above the arc. (At least what I was taught)

Why do people think you run less in 3 person?

Also, $1400 a year in a school budget is peanuts.

Depending on what you do in 3 Person, you do not have to sprint everywhere. Just being in the center position you do not move that much. I think you can get away with not running that much in a high school floor setting.

That being said, depending on the school I would think that $1400 is a little high. For one in many cases schools cannot play that many games at home. Maybe 10-12 games at the most. If you are paying $60 per official (one game of course) and they play 12 games at home (not including tournaments or other events that make schools money) that is only $720 extra dollars per season for another official. So the amount is minor if you value a better called game and what many schools claim is about "safety." I know a few schools in my area that did not play a single home game until January. And I doubt they will get to 10 games by season's end at home.

Peace

I worked a GJV/V game last night 2-Man. I got burnt running down the court on OOB call behind me in the backcourt on my line. T was able to help me. We talked about the failing of two man and how we are used to not having to ref that line in 3-Man. Coach questioned the call at a time out. I told him if he wanted a better officiated view on that play to, hire 3 Officials. He said we've had two officials here since I played ball here. I told him "they missed it then to right, coach?". Big :D followed. Afterwards he admitted they really needed to get 3 for the V games anyway.

Back to BigGravy's point: that the amount of money needed per year for the 3rd official is small when looking at an overall school budget. I agree it's small but disagree that it should be a priority for schools. I won't get too in depth on why but there were a hand full of schools closed this year in this area due to budget cuts. How can I complain about not having a 3rd official when teachers are being cut and kids class sizes are sky rocketing? Anyway. To answer your last question...

Last year I would say about 75% of varsity games were 3 crew around here. This year, citing budget issues, all but 2 conferences went back to 2. All for about $1,500 a year/school. Some very good, experienced, valuable officials are cutting back and/or hanging it up because they can't keep up with just 2 officials. It sucks but it's life.

Because you do. Anyone who works a considerable amount of both won't even try to pretend that it's no harder on the body working 2 than working 3.

To me, the biggest difference is you spend 1/3 of the game at C and you simply don't need to sprint nearly as much as a C. You don't have a play to beat down the floor and you use your eyes more than you use your legs.

The NCHSAA mandates that all varsity contests are officiated by three officials, and have since 1991. Schools have no choice. Your state association needs to grow a pair.

Our local association also uses three man for all JV games as well and have done so since 2004. How else you can you train JV officials?

I agree with biggravy that it's much easier to look where you're going when running from T to L in 3 man. No, I do not look over my shoulder the entire time. If there's a play behind me, there's a C and a T. Rarely do I ever have to make a call going to L. It's my job to get to the end line and be ready for the play to come to me.

And yes, Rut and Rich are correct. You spend +/- a third of the game at C, where you're not sprinting to the other end as often. If you've got a team pressing full court, it's a walk from FT line to FT line. That's huge!

But in the OP biggravy specifically mentioned a fast break. As new L in 3-man, you still have to look back over your shoulder for a fast break (assuming you're ahead of it), don't you?

The fans in question are out of bounds? Why is the sideline in front of the benches any different than the other sideline?

I need a markerboard so I can just draw this. Usually if there is no nearby action, I am a safe two feet or so onto the court in transition. Around here, the benches seem to be right up on the sideline. In two man, this keeps me from colliding w/ coaches, bench personnel, mascots, etc. since I am having to look to the right or even over my shoulder while I am running, sometimes at a dead sprint (a gear I rarely need in 3 man). In my sitch, team A has secured a turnover at about the 28 foot line, 5 feet in from my sideline. They are (poorly) attempting to turn it into a fastbreak. I have now moved to where my left shoulder is over the sideline due to the action being just a couple feet away. In three man, as they are mucking it up I am sprinting ahead of the action where I can then a. turn and watch, b. have good position if they snap a pass downcourt. I've got the new T behind me coming right up on the action and taking the sideline. I can focus for a second on juking the coach, mascot, etc. to get where I need to be. Too bad this is two man. I need to constantly watch to my right or slightly behind while I am moving WITH the play instead of ahead of it b/c there is no T coming up behind me. Somehow with my Jedi sense I juked and missed the sub at the table (6" between the table and the sideline), the standing coach, the legs sticking out kid on the bench, the 6 year old walking the two year old and holding the popcorn but I was unable to focus my senses to the tricycle motor that only came up to the top of my knee. The fans WERE NOT out of bounds, thus the collision. It was a situation that I AM 100% CONFIDENT would not have ended that way in three man.

I believe two man:

-Results in a poorly officiated game as compared to 3 man, all other factors being equal.

-Leads to more rough play.

-Increases the injury potential for officials and players.

As it was stated by others earlier in the thread, you should not be taking your eyes off the players on the court. In other words watching where you're running.

As lead you must have players in your primary. If you are watching where you are running, you aren't watching the players.

As someone who does mostly 2-man with a 3-man sprinkled in about 12 times a year, my body aches ALOT more after a 2-man compared to 3-man.

Yes, but the pressure on the 2 person mechanic is that while hustling as the new lead, you have sideline responsibility unlike 3 person. I find that the challenge for two person is that you need to focus more on this issue. So I don't have to turn my head like Linda Blair while running down the court in 3 person.

A few years ago, BJV (two person) I was running down the sideline looking over my shoulder when the next thing my partner saw was a big cloud of popcorn. I ejected the fan for being on the floor since I was in bounds and there was a long runner out of bounds to guide the spectators where they should walk. I was pissed. I did get some satisfaction as the moron had to limp out of the gym. :D

All V here is 3 person. All JV is 2 person. There is talk that the big power private schools are going to 3 person for BJV. They need to. Most of their JV teams are bigger and more athletic than some teams V. But the school conferences determine what is used not our association. Here, the association has no authority over assignments or fees. Thats all controlled by the schools. Thats why we are underpaid compared to other states.

I'll buy this -- the Linda Blair comment is pretty spot on. You actually have to officiate behind you in 2-person and you really don't in 3.

I hear biggravy on this one. It's not that you can just turn and leave the action completely going T-to-L in 3-man, but you don't have the sideline to cover, and don't need to help at all in the backcourt. It's much more likely you can look where you are going a bit more often.

Also, in 3-man, as T you can work wider and deeper (regardless of what the "recommendation" is). You don't have to get nearly as far onto the court for sure. You can release quicker after a rebound. All of these reasons makes biggravy's description of the play believable.

That said, it's unfortunately part of the territory.

I had my first V 2-man game ever last night. It's a challenge. And anyone who argues it's not much harder on the body - and that there's no doubt more "action" is missed in a 2-man game - hasn't worked enough of both.

I just came from a state where in my district every game was 3-man. Everything from Jr. High girls to V level action was 3-man. We got paid a little less than we could have if we worked 2-man, but it was more than worth it to give up some bucks to work 3-man.

I just moved and worked my first game in a state where only the biggest two classes use 3-man for V, everything else is 2-man.

This is going to be an adjustment...

If a kid wanders onto the court and we have a collision, it is regrettable, sure, but it's not our fault. This could happen in three man also.

As far as the added need to sprint to stay ahead in two man, sometimes you simply have to step aside and let the players pass, then follow.

I personally think the guarantee of a better called game with three man is overstated.

Will each and every game be better called? No, but the odds are far and away higher that the gave will be well called.
Frankly, it has nothing to do with sprinting down the court, but having the third set of eyes to catch off ball stuff is important.

Last night I had one of my few 2-whistle games, and I know for a fact things were missed that would have been caught with 3 whistles.

I'm working for a small conference this season that uses two man crews and really notice that I'm missing plenty. No question 3 person is a better officiated game.