First time, and it happened twice
 

Tonight, Girls JV. First time ever this has happened.

After warning horn goes off for a Time-Out, visiting team sends a player to the table to sub in. I noticed this happened when I was getting ready to hand the ball in for a throw-in. I turn around to tell the coach that after the first horn goes off (warning horn) the table is closed for any substitutions.

With 10 seconds left in the close game, a Time-Out is granted and right after the first horn goes off I see a player going to the table to check in from the same team as above. I tell her that she has to wait so the coach pulls her and puts her back on the bench as she probably wasn't going to get in at all.

Rulebook still in the car, too lazy to get it but did I get this right? It was one of those moments where something hardly happens, but when it does the rule pops out of your sub-conscious mind. I believe I did look this up after seeing it happen in an NCAA game where the official stopped the player from coming in after the warning horn goes off.

I'll give you the reference... you can look it up when you get your book. ;)

3-3-1a

Not gonna make this easy for me are you? haha. I'll go get my rulebook now.

3-3-1
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out.

So I was correct then. Thanks TJ.

I made it pretty easy for you. :)

Yes, you were correct - good call!

Had this the other night, too. I get it about once or twice a year. I was T getting ready to administer a throwin in the FC following a TO, I'm table side. C whistles for a sub just as I'm about to hand it in. I turn and ask the table, who's already shaking his head. "Did he report in time?" "No, he didn't."
Coach didn't say a word.

Since the OP has been answered, mind if I branch the thread off into a related topic regarding time-outs and subsitutions?

This thread is timely, I was just reading through the section in Rule 10 about substitutes entering without reporting and had a question regarding our duties during a time out.

I don't recall this being mentioned in my training so I'll go ahead and ask a newbie question, should we be taking a note of who the players are during a time-out and that a sub is not sent in without having them report?

If so, is this something you pre-game with your partner(s)?

My opinion; no. Players are supposed to check in before substituting another player. They know that and becomes a force of habit. If a player tries to sneak in without reporting, that's fine with me as long as I don't see it or notice it. Can't call what you don't see, right? If the opposing coach mentions something about a player who wasn't there before the time out, or the table gets my attention about this, then it is a technical foul for entering the game without reporting to the table, as long as I can confirm with the table that he/she wasn't a player prior to the time out, and has not checked in before time out ended.

Rep, not being critical here but, Tjones shouldn't make it easy for you.
IMHO, you learn a lot more here at the forum if you have your rule book and case book by your side. I find that if I follow the thread using my books, either to come up with the correct rule application of a poster's sitch; or to follow the citations that the vets post in their replies, I learn the rule, the interpertation of the rule, and the proper application of the rule more thoroughly. I tend to retain it better (especially in the heat of game), as opposed to rote memory. I think this is a good approach, if like me, you're a newer official.

Thanks KJ. I'm not a newer official, I was just too lazy to get my rulebook that I thought was in the car, but was actually in my gym bag that I took with me last week to pick-up basketball so I could read a few things when I'm not playing.

And I know some of us only knows when someone's joking about anything when he/she puts in an emote (i.e. ;)) but I was actually just kidding with TJ when I said that. I like to kid a lot.

While awareness is always a good thing, i wouldn't try to remember something like this. It's not really worth the effort for the amount of times you'd actually catch something.

Usually, the way it happens is that, after the timeout has completed, the coach will send the sub to the table, so you'll see it.

Yes, you are. In another thread you posted your age and you can't have been working HS level ball for more than five years.

Just accept it, ACE. You are still young and learning.

Strictly speaking that is the scorer's job, but if the official notices it, then he should deal with it.

Ok, an interesting question from the table's POV: what is to be done if anyone at the table witnesses a player coming in to sub after the warning horn?

We are just disagreeing on how many years the word "newer" covers. I was thinking two or three. This is my 6th season officiating. I do accept that I am young and learning, but I don't consider myself a "newer" official.

Allow them to check-in, but not permit them to enter the game.

If the coach causes a fuss about it, call an official over. More than likely the official will ask you if the sub checked in before the warning horn...all ya gotta say is no and the official should take care of it.

This is actually what happened with the first time the substitution happened tonight. I had my back to the table and the team making the sub after the warning horn. I noticed it happened out of the corner of my eyes, but I did hear the scorer or clock operator saying "hey, you can't go in right now." The clock operator is an official himself, so it must have been him saying it. I don't see him officiating much anymore though, he probably likes it better behind the table than on the floor. Doesn't pay as much, if anything probably.

So does this mean having a copy of the rule in case this does happen, handy?

This way the coach can't say anything?

Not necessary. The official can handle it in this situation once you call one over to the table.

EDIT: to continue, if the coach disagrees with the ruling and thinks the official is wrong, tough luck. I would tell the coach that he can disagree all he wants, but it is in the rule book and that he should look it up after the game. In PA, all coaches receive a copy of the rule book and case book, or are supposed to as per PIAA's requirements. Whether they read it or not, that's up to them.

I do. Many of the things which you write and questions you ask display characteristics of a green official and one who is lacking a solid foundation in rules knowledge. The good thing is that you are participating on this forum where some savvy veterans can help you to improve in those areas.

For example...
Why in the world would you have your back to the table during a time-out? You made an error in your positioning here. You should position yourself to observe that area as well as the team benches (at least one of them) until the 2nd horn sounds and then quickly step/turn to your position for resuming play.

I was asking about having a copy handy, as it seems that, especially in my case, the scorers I work with have no or little understanding of the rules except for what they need to do & nothing more.

The OOB spot was in front of the table. My partner is at the center circle where he's supposed to be, and I was standing at the spot of the throw-in for after the time out, facing the playing floor. That's how it's supposed to be done. Can't find it in the rulebook but that is how we do it in this league.

Well, if you do that, then it would be fine by me. But I would NEVER open up a rulebook during a game, even if a coach said "hey, there's a rulebook, prove it to me". How ugly would that look to all the players, fans, coaches, administrators, etc.?

I wasn't meaning having a full rulebook there at the table.

Have a copy of the rule there, like the shot clock instructions I keep with me that I copied from the internet.

Shoot, sounds like your talking about fans now!!

Nope, you are taking your position for the tableside throw-in too quickly. You should stand back a few feet out onto the floor until that second horn sounds, and then step over there to administer the throw-in.

In the 2-person system, you need to keep your eyes on all that you can because there are only two officials. Giving yourself a wide angle and keeping certain areas in view and in front of you is good advice. But don't follow it if you like, and continue to have problems crop up in your games. I'm sure that will get you on those varsity league games real soon. :rolleyes:

You should copy NFHS 2-11, 2-12 and 2-13 in that case. Pretty much everything else in the rulebook is up to the referee to enforce.

I will take your suggestions in consideration. But this is the way we do it in our league.

And where the hell is it in the rulebook where it states the position of the officials during a time out (or is that a state's thing)? I've been looking through the rulebook for the last 10-15 minutes trying to find the damn thing and can't find it anywhere.

In some cases, the person choosen to be scorer basically is a fan.

Considering the personnel I work with when I'm doing scoreboard/timer, for JV & C-Sqaud, don't seem to know the meaning of being neutral while at the table.

Thankfully, when I'm doing shot clock Varsity the table presonnel are neutral to every extent.

Which is a good thing. The officials have the power to have a table personnel removed and replaced if he/she feels the table personnel is not cooperating with the officials in the way that they need to be as per Rules 2-11, 2-12 and 2-13.

In the 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual, the 2-person time-out mechanics can be found on pages 38-41.

The 3-person timeout mechanics can be found on pages 75-78.

Thanks, I was looking in the wrong area. I'll go dig that up tomorrow as I need to go to bed soon.

Accept that in many areas, including, it seems, yours, the "administrative rules" are more loosely enforced at lower levels.

If you are working the table (one of the "official" positions), then tell the sub that s/he can't enter. If you aren't working the table, then leave it up to those who are and the game officials.

Thanks for the feedback, Snaqs and Nevada. :)