Advantage/Disadvantage

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I have a problem with NFHS wanting us to apply advantage/disadvantage, and then making a point in the rules clinic that the coaches attend in regards to handchecking that handchecking is to be called in certain situations regardless of whether an advantage is gained or disadvantage created.

That's the problem I've run into with coaches lately re: handchecking. They are told at the rules meeting that if you spot up your opponent with your hand/arm, release, and then spot up again, *tweet*.

They are also told that if you put a hand on and leave it there, *tweet*.

ADV/DADV doesn't apply in those interpretations, so we are left blowing in the wind. I still haven't heard a satisfactory answer as to how to solve this dilemma.

Why do you care what coaches think? Coaches think if you look at their player wrong it is a foul. Hand-checking does not circumvent the current rules. There is nothing different about hand-checking than any other contact foul, the difference is they defined what is hand-checking. This is why judgment is what makes or breaks us as officials. We either have it or we do not in my opinion.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why do you care what coaches think?

It's not my job to "care," but it is my job to communicate. I wish I could go through a game and not have to interact with the coaches, but the fact is that we do. It's not unreasonable for a coach to ask a question (if he/she does it in the right way), and for us to give a reasonable answer. Problem is, I still haven't been able to come up with a reasonable answer in this instance.

When I pass on a handcheck because I don't think an advantage (or disadvantage) was gained, coaches are consistently asking me this year why I'm not calling it. Some of them are composed when they talk to me, others fly off the handle. The latter I can deal with.

The former is who I have been struggling with. These are coaches who remember explicitly from the rules clinic that if you put the hand on, then take it off, then put it back on, it's an "automatic" handcheck. That's how it was explained at this year's rule clinic, and we were told that was coming down from NFHS. Also, that two hands on the body is an "automatic" handcheck. Or that keeping a hand or forearm for an "extended" period of time is "automatic."

So, my opportunity as an official to make a judgment call is taken away and I either have to give the coach a stupid look and feel like an idiot when he asks me (in a reasonable manner) why I'm not calling it, or, since I'm doing freshman and JV ball, I have to call 50 handchecks during the course of one game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

It's not my job to "care," but it is my job to communicate. I wish I could go through a game and not have to interact with the coaches, but the fact is that we do. It's not unreasonable for a coach to ask a question (if he/she does it in the right way), and for us to give a reasonable answer. Problem is, I still haven't been able to come up with a reasonable answer in this instance.

When I pass on a handcheck because I don't think an advantage (or disadvantage) was gained, coaches are consistently asking me this year why I'm not calling it. Some of them are composed when they talk to me, others fly off the handle. The latter I can deal with.

The former is who I have been struggling with. These are coaches who remember explicitly from the rules clinic that if you put the hand on, then take it off, then put it back on, it's an "automatic" handcheck. That's how it was explained at this year's rule clinic, and we were told that was coming down from NFHS. Also, that two hands on the body is an "automatic" handcheck. Or that keeping a hand or forearm for an "extended" period of time is "automatic."

So, my opportunity as an official to make a judgment call is taken away and I either have to give the coach a stupid look and feel like an idiot when he asks me (in a reasonable manner) why I'm not calling it, or, since I'm doing freshman and JV ball, I have to call 50 handchecks during the course of one game.

I could give a crap what coaches are told in a clinic. I do not base my communication based on what they think they know or understand. I call my game based on the rules and my judgment. If they do not like it, that is their problem. I probably passed many schools to work their school, so what they think is a hand-check is not my concern or affect what I do. The rules say what a hand-check is, and if there is no advantage I am not calling it. Touching is not a foul. And I use the RSQB position (Rhythm, Speed, Quickness and Balance). If those things are not affected, then it is not a foul. Some players blow by defenders that try to put their hands on them. I am not calling a foul or calling a "game interrupter" just to satisfy a coach. I do call a lot of hand-checks early and it stops really quickly because those players will not be in the game too long if they do not know how to play defense without their hands.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I could give a crap what coaches are told in a clinic.

So if you go to an official state rules clinic, with coaches and officials all in attendance, and everyone is told by the rules interpreter "Coaches, we're going to call A this year" and you go out and call "B" on the court, and the coach asks you why, what reason are you going to give the coach?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

So if you go to an official state rules clinic, with coaches and officials all in attendance, and everyone is told by the rules interpreter "Coaches, we're going to call A this year" and you go out and call "B" on the court, and the coach asks you why, what reason are you going to give the coach?

Just so you know my state has online rules meetings as well as live meetings. The coaches never attend the live meetings (which are held with local associations most of the time now) and not all coaches attended anyway. All that was required is a school send a single representative for the entire coaching staff. So I do not go around worrying what the Freshman B coach told the head coach that did not have the time to attend the meeting themselves.

When I tell coaches things, I give them the rule. If they do not know what I am talking about, that is their problem. I want to be able to say something that can be verified. It is not my responsibility to explain anything in the first place. It is a courtesy. Not something I stay up at night worrying about.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

To Fiasco's point: There are some words in the 2008-2009 rules book under "POE" that seem to take much of the judgment out of the hand-check foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

To Fiasco's point: There are some words in the 2008-2009 rules book under "POE" that seem to take much of the judgment out of the hand-check foul.

And those still do not circumvent the rules that are in place. The POE did not change anything in the rules, they just gave guidelines. And those still involve judgment.

Peace

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

To Fiasco's point: There are some words in the 2008-2009 rules book under "POE" that seem to take much of the judgment out of the hand-check foul.

Thanks, bob. I don't have my old rule book anymore. Can anyone post the wording bob's talking about?