Pecking order
 

Had an official who is a friend, strictly does frosh/soph games with no aspirations. He's a good, dedicated official who studies the rules and takes the game seriously. In my area, there are multiple games going on at one school, freshman A/B, sophomore and Varsity. We all share the same locker room. He talked about some officials who because of their varsity status look down on the underclass officials. I can remember that somewhat when I first started but have to say in the past few years there seems to be more of a brotherhood no matter what level you officiate. I'm in the Chicago area, suburbs. I've always found the deeper I do games in the city, the more friendlier the officials are on all levels for some reason.

Wondering how your areas are regarding rank and attitude.

I'm of course still new to the officiating scene, but I'm in the same area as you, fullor, and I've always been greeted nicely by the varsity officials if their game is after mine

People are people. Some nice. SOme idiots. I know long time Varsity/college Officials in both my associations that bend over backwards for you. Give you advice and even put in good words for lower level officials with assignors when warranted.

I also know younger up and coming officials who think they have all the answers. Who are rising up the ranks and think that makes them better than their peers.

I know younger / newer officials who seem to have compromising pictures of the assignors. :eek:

I just try to be the best person I can be, let my character show through my work, and have fun in this avocation.

I'm finding in the last few years that a number (not all, but many) of newer and/or younger officials aren't interested in hearing any comments from me and others with significant experience. A lot of us have taken the attitude now that we will speak up when asked, but aren't going to offer our viewpoint only to get an attitude back. I went to a jr. high game a few years ago to watch and critique the officials -- thinking I was there to help them out. One guy was lukewarm to my suggestions and the other one wasn't interested at all. Neither one is still around and you can be sure the assignor was made aware of everything that happened. Not that I'm the guru of critiquers around here, but the assignor knows who should be blown off and who shouldn't. The former is a very small list.

My point is not to defend people that act like they are big time or are jerks, but some have some battle wounds.

I’ll agree, with some caveats.

I’m starting my fourth yr of HS ball (sixth yr overall) and have worked my way up to a partial V schedule for which I am happy and grateful to those that have helped me get where I am. That being said….

When I first arrived in my Association I felt very much the outsider (which is natural). Some V Officials were nice, cordial, friendly, while others, not so much. Of course, this could be said about many work, social or clique organizations where seniority, amongst other factors, has a place (right or wrong).

I started at the bottom – understandably. I worked with good and not so good officials (IMO). There were officials at this level who cared and others who didn’t’. At meetings and in the locker room, I was “the new guy.” Was I an up and comer? Was I there to eventually steal their games? Was I a threat? Who knows? Some refs treated me well, others not so much. Some senior officials know how to teach, coach, mentor – others don’t. Some are Neanderthals, some are aloof, some can’t talk to you without being condescending or overly critical. Others are great, helpful, and show what I call “tough love” and take their role as a Senior Official seriously.

Bottom line – on my way to where I am now, (middle of the pack in my Association by my estimates) I have met the good and the bad. Refs who were standoffish a few years ago have really given me some great assistance. This summer/fall I even reffed with several of my trainers and the most senior of our officials. I used to be intimidated now it’s awesome and I look forward to the experience! As we have stated before, learn from everyone and take bits and pieces to mold yourself.

I have worked hard and still have a ways to go yet (IMO). I find if you take the time to try hard, others will notice. I seek games and work whenever called, I accept criticism, I go into the locker room to learn from V officials – and now they ask me, “So, what did you see?”

I too believe I saw a pecking order more several yrs ago than I do now. Maybe I see it from a different perspective. Maybe I’m one of “them” now. I don't think so, but I’ll let others judge me.

When I was in the military I saw some of what I thought were “poor leaders and managers,” I learned from everyone of them, right or wrong. Treat others how you want to be treated. Never treat people poorly on your way up……as you never know when you’ll be on your way down.

I heard a quote after the first Gulf War attributed to GEN Colin Powell (although I researched it and can’t find it) who said, “Even Saddam Hussein has value. He can always be used as a bad example.”

Regardless how you may have been treated in school, work, or in life , be the bigger person. Be one of the good guys/gals!

My $.02. Rant off.

Well said...........

Attitudes will be found on all levels. I have had lots of help along the way. Lots of good advice and some poor advice. Now as the shoe is on the other foot so to speak, if newer officials ask for advice, I try to help with one suggestion.
I had one game last year where the R was a total jerk and spent the entire halftime tearing me down. And then during a break in the 2nd half said "Isn't this a great game?" I spoke to another official later that day and found that my opinion of the guy was not unusual. Had I stayed I would have requested to not ever work with the guy again.
The best advice is to ask for advice and don't be a Yabut. And to stay and observe how the advisor practices what he preaches [not done by the above R btw]. Ask to be a part of the halftime discussion as an observer. My standard comment as a JV official was "I think you are getting what you need to get".
There is some snobbery even among crews....college guys using college mechanics, etc, but for the most part, I have found that the common bond of officiating makes for good friendships. And guys that 'look down' on lower level officials usually look down on other crew members. Although, recognition of officials who are in it for the money or who would not listen to advice if they got paid for it will usually result in those people being ignored.

I have an opinion on this subject.

I think the association/conference is the determining factor in how much of a pecking order exists. Being retired military - don't get it twisted, I'm not old - I have had to move three times in the last 7 years. The first stop, DC, the assigners saw me work and I got games. People were pissed off because I got high visibility games. Next stop Mississippi. The assigner saw me work and I got games. Again, people were pissed because of the games I got. Back "home" to Las Vegas. Totally different situation and I have to work hard to keep my mouth shut. I can't complain totally because I still get some high visibility games, but there are other things going on.

Now, I'm a varsity official who has had some success on the college level and I absolutely hate the politics that go on in basketball officiating. I hate it when I hear someone talk down to someone else - I hated it in the military too. If I'm secure in where I'm at I find no reason to talk to people like that.

If the OP belongs to Cardinal (IAABO), they have a reputation for holding people back because they are "new" to their association. Thank goodness I lived in Maryland instead of Northern VA.

I could go on and on about this subject. Unfortunately, basketball officiating is far too political.

Having just moved I can attest to how different associations have treated me. Next season, I will work where I have been treated well. I have worked for 3 assns this season. 3 to make 2 applies and I am going with the made FTs in 2010-11.

I have worked in several states...IN, KY, CT, IL, MO, KS

For the biggest share of us, this is an avocation. We are not in it for the money and certainly put a great deal of time into being better.

You will find that if you seek to improve there will be someone to help you. You will get some good advice and some bad.
You will get some advice that you can adapt and apply quickly and some that is hard to do.

Listen with two ears and speak softly. Let your reputation be earned by what is done and court and how you handle yourself off the court.

I found the suburban Chicago area to be a difficult area. Many, many, many assignors to work with. Too many crews that work together every night. Cliques that thought they were better, so much so that they wore a different color jacket from everyone else to show themselves off.

Find people that you like to be with and try to be a great mentor for those that seek your help.

Peace.

I just got back into officiating from a 3 year absence (2nd year HS, 3 years college intramurals). I almost beg V officials (or if partner is Class1) to give me advice. It almost upsets me if somebody doesn't say anything. But I understand some officials just don't feel comfortable blurting out critiques.

I usually ask the V crew if I notice they step out to watch the JV game. I take any and all notes possible. From the smallest to the biggest problems.

If you can't have fun doing something, then why do it? :)

Always ask, but never badger. I don't offer advice if not asked. And I don't ask unless I truly want to get advice. Had one official 'offer' 'advice' this season. It was not well received. And my partner, who also does mostly V games, indicated that the official 'offering' the 'advice' had an extremely inflated opinion of herself and that her reputation is well known in that association.

Chicago area is extremely competitive for officials. The state has over 6,000 officials with over 4,000 being in a 40 mile radius of Chicago as the rumor goes. I think the whole state of Nevada as posted here has just over 300 officials(about the size of one of our suburban associations)

It is a political animal and you'd better learn to play the game if you want to advance.

Regarding assignors, I'd rather have 7-8, which I do, and get a small schedule from each. That way I don't feel as dependent on any of them.

I also enjoy working different conferences. makes it more interesting. I had the same Varsity team 5 times last year and it seemed like I had a cot in the Ad's office.

Agree with a lot of things said especially about having fun. Most of the V's refs are fine but a few are just punks who were needed and came from other associations simply because of a lack of numbers. It kind of frustrated me when I learned how low our association was regarded and part of the problem is the same refs get recycled even those who have no business doing tough games but there is a big buddy/loyalty system and quality goes down unfortunately. Or the guys they do move up look the part but when it comes to calling the games they just aren't that good. Not sure how the assigners do it but perhaps some lottery system or something random to take away the buddy system. A lot of those guys who are assigning the varsity seem to know each other and will defend refs no matter what even though there are refs because of their age have clearly dropped but they keep getting varsity games. I've been to camps and gotten to do about 15 Varsity games over the past few years but after a while you kind of see where things are and that the association or assigners aren't going to help so you got to be proactive and do it yourself.
I would also advice if it is practical to join more than one association. I know some who got assigned varsity games simply because they were outside even though they might not have been ready. Done fine so far I think.
The travel might be weak but even doing a few games outside would help.
It was great in my first couple of years working with good varsity officials and getting feedback from them. Or guys that were watching and came after the games. Too bad a lot of the new ones refuse to work lower levels and don't bother with anything but their games. Very little feedback now.
Luckily I still have fun games and some quality partners. Working close games with a big crowd is a blast. :)

I think grunewar is having a similar experience to what mine has been.

Although it sometimes seems as if I just started, I am now one of the more senior officials in our group (14 years). I moved up steadily in the rankings from when I first started and have been fortunate enough to be in that "top group" for a while now.

On my way up, I encountered all kinds of higher-ranked officials. A few in the top who made sure I knew just how great they were and seemed intent on keeping others down. :rolleyes: A few in the top who were great mentors and did what they could to help me along without any concern of whether or not I might someday be a direct peer. :) A few in the top who just did their own thing without getting involved with others at all. A few in the top who did whatever they thought made them look better in the eyes of others. :rolleyes: They all serve a purpose.... you can see what works and what doesn't. :D

When I look at the handful of guys who started in the early 90's with me, I see some who have consistently worked hard and been consumate professionals. They have attended at least a few camps and use the off-season to improve rather than to develop bad habits (or do nothing). While there is some variance in "natural talent," most of those guys who work at it have climbed steadily.

Some of the others who started back then don't take it real serious and aren't too concerned about ratings. They work their games and don't complain about not getting a "top" schedule. Our assignor loves those guys - he says they "chew up innings."

Then there are a few who lace em' up in November and put em' away in March and can't figure out why the politics of our association holds them back. :rolleyes:

I hope I am a good mentor now. If I see an official who is working hard and asking lots of questions, I will bend over backwards for them. One young official called me after last season and asked if he could work summer games with me. I had our assignor put him on my crew several times for summer leagues and tournaments and he worked with some other vets as well. He pestered me for info every game and added many tools to his game. His improvement was amazing. I am sure that he is on his way to becoming a top-rated official for us. Heck, he might pass me by in a few years and I am OK with that. I think being a top official is a privilege AND a responsibility. The responsibility is to make sure there are competent officials to take my place when I walk off the floor for the last time (many, many years away I hope).

If I see an official and I offer them some advice, I watch their reaction. If they want the info, I will continue to help them when I see them down the road. If they resist or make excuses, I won't waste my time with them anymore.

Most things are/become political when there is a selection process. I guess the old, "work hard, head down" pays off in some of these situations.

I am fortunate that a conference commish saw me work a JV game and asked me to take the class 1 test this year to get on his varsity roster. He had some comments on some of my mechanics and I explained I was still shaking the rust after being out for three years. He was still impressed enough to get me to the next level.

He's somebody I will stay in contact with and be on the good side with. No matter his reputation, as long as I work hard and he rewards me...thus goes the politics of officiating.

Edit:

He also told me he's trying to flush out some of the "veterans" who, in his opinion, aren't as sharp and seem to become lax on mechanics and working hard. So there are some commissioners/assigners who are actively keep things fresh. Whether some of its politics, I have no idea.

Also, does anyone get paid to observe refs? I think that might help. Maybe even $5-10. In the scrimmages working with extra refs I got some feedback and gave some of my own. Or does your associations require at least one observation? I talked about this with a 2nd year guy and he also said the same as me that he was getting very little feedback as well. I'm thinking of videotaping some of my games.

Soapbox Time ...
 

When I was on my way up, I, and almost all of my fellow subvarsity colleagues, would stick around to watch the varsity game, and even observe the halftime, and post game, locker room discussion.

Today, many, but not all, subvarsity officials, work their game, take off their shoes, don't even bother to change, or shower, and give us a wave as they make a beeline out the gymnasium door.

My simple advice to subvarsity officials: Stay and watch the varsity game. You learn best by observing experienced officials working tough, competitive games. The adult beverages will still be cold later that evening.

Amen.............see it all the time.

Actually, that's about the size of the association in Las Vegas. The whole state is closer to 500, but this small difference doesn't change the point which you are making.

PS Those numbers are only for basketball. There are obviously many more officials in the state for other sports.

I have lived in the Chicago are for 10 years soon to be 11 years. I started officiating in West Central Illinois. I can say that my experience in the Chicago area has been much fairer and much less political. For one there are more games and opportunities in the Chicago area and if you do the right things you will get noticed. In other parts of the state, if you do not know the right people or liked by the right people, you will never get a shot. I also get a little tired of the politics talks that we have.

There is politics in everything. If you work in the Post Office there are people that have to play some politics to get certain jobs just like you would in any profession. Officiating is no different than any subjective, competitive adventure. Anytime you have people that are competing for spots, you will have jealousy and backbiting from time to time. I just try to treat others like I want to be treated and move on. You cannot handle how everyone treats you and whether people like you. There are people that will not like you as I learned early in my career because you get an opportunity they did not get. And you might get those opportunities just because you work harder than those not willing to work hard at all. Or you look the part and do all the right things mechanically and even rules application wise and you get a shot that some guy that never attends a camp will never get as well.

I am not sure what this has to do with the pecking order, but I think we are our best friends or worst enemies as officials.

Peace

Rut, you have mentioned repeatedly that how things are depend on where you live. If I'm reading your comment right, you are saying you are tired of hearing about politics on this site. If that is the case, you should just ignore it because sometimes people have to vent. I have been in highly political associations and associations that simply put the best officials on the floor. I understand where both sides are coming from and I don't think there is anything wrong with the discussion.

I think that the tide is changing in Central Ohio. 25 - 30 years ago, the varsity officials would actually select their JV referees. These referees obviously looked out for their own and put in good words for their JV officials.

Then, we had a rather lengthy period of time in which the FR/JV officials were completely disconnected with the varsity crews. Other than a brief meet-n-greet at halftime of the JV game (when the varsity officials would come into the JV locker room and introduce themselves to the JV guys), there was very little interaction.

Beginning with the 2008-09 basketball season, the largest suburban conference in Central Ohio decided to make some rather dramatic changes. First of all, they appointed a new League Commissioner. They then appointed new assignors in most sports. The new basketball assignor (who had been an assignor in a couple other conferences in the past) worked with the largest referee association (about 300 members), the commissioner and the ADs to create a mentoring program.

It is still very much a work-in-progress, but varsity crews are now paired with FR/JV crews for all league games. On the boys side, all FR//JV crews are 3-man crews to give the newer officials experience in 3-man mechanics prior to moving up to the varsity level. At least one, and in many cases two or three of the varsity offiicials will watch part of the FR game and ALL of the JV game. Lots of interaction at halftime from a mentoring standpoint. Frequently, the FR/JV officials stay to watch at least half of the varsity game (and come in for the varsity halftime discussion).

Other conferences have taken notice, as has the OHSAA (the program is now being run with OHSAA's blessing and support). The system is not perfect, but we are now working on developing a "cradle to grave" system for officials that will involve more relevant training, more extensive use of videos, more online training, etc. to make the progression a clearer path for all.

It's rare that FR/JV guys want feedback here. Many have no aspiration to move up (especially in the rural towns where they are hired because they are (1) licensed and (2) local).

So when I worked a varsity game after another varsity game on Wednesday and the crew (3-person) stayed to watch our game (which, for some reason, was worked 2-person), I was more than open to some feedback.

Matter of fact, I was just out of the shower when one of the officials walked in and said, "Ready for your critique?" to which I said, "Sure, anything you have." He was just kidding, apparently. I wasn't.

I'm going to go to 2-3 camps this summer and see if I'm good enough to be noticed by a college assignor or two. If not, I'll hopefully learn something I can take back to the high school court next year. I also was a clinician at my first clinic this year and learned as much as when I was a camper and felt I made a difference in other people's work. It's been a pretty good year.

Tommy,

My point is that we all deal with it on some level. I am not totally convinced that everyone is hindered in their career by politics. I think a lot of people do not do the things they are supposed to do and when they do not get opportunities they say it is "politics" when actually it is them being lazy or not doing the right things. I live in a highly political area too. But we have people here that think they deserve to work varsity games just because one guy gives them games in some other conference. Well, the reality is that you are almost never going to work for someone if they have never seen you work. That means you probably have to go to someone's camp to get hired. That might mean you have to go to multiple camps. Take time out of your busy schedule. But if you think some assignor is just going to fire someone else that is reliable and has the respect of his conference for some guy that works in a conference that no one respects, you are crazy. Because in my area when guys say this, I start asking questions of what they do and it becomes obvious for a lot of reasons why they are not getting hired in certain places. And most of those things are self inflicted. I am sure that varies from one area to another. But I think it is often blown out of proportion. I could be wrong, but it sounds like a crutch for many people.

Peace

The tread has meandered somewhat as the point originally was related to the acceptance of lower level HS officials by Varsity guys and the views of officials either now or when they were moving up.

I do agree Jeff, that I see officials complain about their schedule or the politics and yet, make no effort to improve themselves either by attending camps or being active in their associations. It can be frustrating though, if you put the time and effort into it and you are good not to get the schedule you want.

It is what it is and I don't ever see the system changing.

Maybe these two statements were tied together.:eek:

Eww. Must scrub brain. Eww.

Now you are saying something different and something I agree with. IMO, many people want to talk their way into a big game, better assignments, etc. People have been coming up to me this season complaining about their ranking and wanting to go before the board. My suggestion is to prove it on the court and stop talking about it. If you remember, I've talked about having a camp for people from this board and there is always an open invitation for forum members to officiate in some of the tournaments in Vegas.

There have been several times in our meetings this year when someone has made a remark and I turn to someone I know and ask, "Can he work?" Most of the time the answer is no. I think we have a problem, in high school officiating, with people wanting things simply because they have been warming the chair for X amount of years. If you want more, the first step is to become a better official. Politics will still exist once that is taken care of and there really isn't an answer at that point.

Tommy,

Without a doubt you got it (the point that is). ;)

Peace

Our association is pretty small ( 40 total officials). I'm in my sophomore season.

We run the gamut with seniority and experience; from guys with 30+ years to this year's cadet class of 9. Without an exception, the Senior Officials (purposely & respectfully capialized) go out of their way to coach, counsel, positively critique, and improve the officiating experience for those with less experience. Those that have an open ear, and a willing, learning attitude will advance to the upper divisions. I've been fortunate to move to a FR/JV/ limited V schedule this season.

Speaking personally, I could not have asked for a better group of folks to work with. I'm looking forward to many more years with my basketball officiating "family", and to stepping into a mentor and senior role myself in a few seasons.

that sounds good Coach2Ref-
even if it is just a half.
maybe it will spread

"It is still very much a work-in-progress, but varsity crews are now paired with FR/JV crews for all league games. On the boys side, all FR//JV crews are 3-man crews to give the newer officials experience in 3-man mechanics prior to moving up to the varsity level. At least one, and in many cases two or three of the varsity offiicials will watch part of the FR game and ALL of the JV game. Lots of interaction at halftime from a mentoring standpoint. Frequently, the FR/JV officials stay to watch at least half of the varsity game (and come in for the varsity halftime discussion)."

You Scratch My Back ...
 

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, varsity officials are strongly encouraged to be there for the tipoff of the junior varsity game, and to offer some constructive criticism, and encouragement, to the junior varsity officials during their halftime. Likewise, junior varsity officials are strongly encouraged to stay for at least half or the varsity game, and to observe the halftime varsity pow wow. Funny thing, most varsity officials do this most of the time. I can't say the same for the junior varsity officials (see earlier post).