Fed, CCA

A1 takes a jump shot with B1 closely defending.

At the peak of the release and with the ball 6" off the hand/fingertips of A1, defender B1 <LI> (A.) touches the shooting hand of A1 in follow through mode; the shot misses.<Li> (B.) touches the wrist/forearm/elbow of A1 in follow through mode; the shot misses.

What do we have?

mick

HTBT to see it for sure, but I most likely would have nothing in both cases. It did not affect the shot and especially if the contact was a result of A's follow through. I would be more apt to have something in (B) depending on the severity of the contact and if it was caused by B and not A.

I concur with dev.

i would have nothing. you said it was after the release and therefor it would not affect the shot. incidental contact.

"Touches" ===> nothing

"Slaps", "Whacks", etc. ====> foul

That'll work, Fellas!
 

Thanks, folks.

With a <u><i>light</i></u> touch after the ball is gone, we have nothing, and we play on even though the shooter is whining.

With adjudged <b>harder</b> contact, the action becomes a foul on the airborne shooter after the release.

With anything in between, that's why we get the Big buck$.

mick

It's amazing how many coaches, fans, and players thanks that contact on the follow through affects the shot. Are there physics at work here that I don't understand? :)

If the shot has been released, contact on the shooter is not going to affect that shot. A proper follow through is the result of proper shooting techniques. But if the follow through is stopped, it certainly doesn't affect the shot.

I do agree with Bob and mick that a slap, whack, or hard contact should be called a foul.

Now, if there's contact on the hand while the shooter is still touching the ball, by a defender who is trying to block the shot, that contact is not accidental and I have a foul.

Say what?:confused:

Mick, I tend to agree with everybody's answers here. Contact after the release should be ignored unless it is a hard whack or something that would look ugly to have no whistle on. Contact on the hand is never a foul since the hand is part of the ball if in contact with the ball. I noticed you put wrist/forearm/elbow for part b. A lot of coaches actually know that the hand is part of the ball when in contact with the ball so we as officials need to be careful when communicating with coaches. You would not want to say "Coach, he got him on the hand." Just say "Coach, he got him on the arm."

Say what? :confused:

You were just waiting for that,weren't you:D
The language in both the Fed and NCAA rulesets are fairly similar.They state that it is legal use of the hands if the defender ACCIDENTALLY hits the hand of an opponent who is shooting(or dribbling,holding,etc.),if that opponent's hand is in contact with the ball.Therefore,if the official feels that the contact was deliberate,and not accidental,the official CAN call a foul on the defender in this instance.The rules reference is R4-24-2 in FED,and somewhere in R4 in NCAA(ain't gonna look it up,but I know that they use the term "accidental" also).As J. Dallas Shirley said.."never say never!".:D
I believe that is what BktBallRef was getting at.The only reason that I questioned Tony's original reply was that it inferred to me that he ALWAYS called a foul in the case where a player tried to block a shot and got the shooter's hand while it was still on the ball.I found that hard to believe.If he can read a defender's intent that clearly that he's able to know,without doubt,that is was a deliberate act and not accidental,he's a better man than I am,Gunga Din!If there's any doubt in my mind(and there usually is),I'll call it "accidental",and pass on the foul.
Good point by Tony,though.The accepted practise is to not call a foul in this situation,but you actually can call the foul,if you are so inclined.Official's judgement.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 16th, 2002 at 03:35 AM]

Eli,
I generally assume the coaches know the rules, but you lost me here.
mick

No, but it might affect subsequent shots (more of a psychic thing than a physics thing), so the defense gains an advantage if the foul isn't called.

bob,
That's certainly correct.
That's also why it's important for the summer blacktop time to include playing some "Pro-ball" which includes pullin', pushin', jabbin' and stabbin'.
Then, when a player does get an unadulterated shot it's like a gift.
mick

Bob, I didn't use the word "foul." I used the word "contact." And, I was really pointing out that coaches, fans, and players seem to think that this contact affects the shot, even though the ball has been released.

I'm not psychic, so unless Dionne Warwicke is working the game, they're gonna be in trouble. ;)

Jurassic, you're exactly right. If an official feels the contact on the hand is deliberate, a foul can certainly be called. And, yes, that is what I was implying.

Wow! I didn't think this was a contraversial concept. I guess it is. In Rule 12B Section I e of the NBA rule book it says "Contact which occurs on the hand of the offensive player, while that hand is in contact with the ball, is legal." This is what I have always been taught and our coaches no this. We can get out of arguments using this rule by saying "Bob, he got him on the hand, which is part of the ball" if we have a no call on a strip play. Or when coaches question why we had a foul we need to make sure we do not say "Bob, he got him on the hand" because they know this is not a foul and I have seen them go off on rookies who make that comment. I know a lot of you are saying but that is the pro rule. Ok, I apologize, I assumed when I wrote my original comment that the pro and college and high school rule was the same regarding this. I read the college rule and it seems to be the same although I am not sure as the language is confusing to me. It says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his or her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidetnal to an attempt to play the ball." A guess that means that if you are playing the ball it is OK but if you are not playing the ball it is not OK but I would think you are nearly always playing the ball if you hit someone's hand while it is on the ball. I could be wrong, that's just my interpretation of the college rule. I do not have a high school rule book to read their wording.

Eli,the NCAA rule that is really relevant is different than the one you quoted above.The pertinent rule is NCAA R4-34-2.It states:
"It shall be legal for a defender to ACCIDENTALLY hit the hand of a ball-handler when reaching to block or slap the ball when there is player control with that player's hand in contact with the ball and that player is a (a)dribbler(b)player attempting a try for field goal(c)player holding the ball".
That's a much clearer interpretation than the one you used.The high school rule basically uses the same language and concept-i.e.accidental contact on the hand is not a foul while deliberate contact can possibly be called a foul.It is up to the judgement of the official as to how to call it-accidental vs. deliberate.Most officials do call it "accidental" and no foul,but an official who does call a foul on this play because he felt the whack was deliberate is backed up by the rulebook(the same as an official who doesn't call a foul is similarly backed up).The way that you call it in your pro games is the way that it is usually called(and taught) in high school and college games too.BktBallRef was making the point that to state that this is NEVER a foul is incorrect.It CAN be called a foul by the language in the NCAA and FED books.
Btw,I agree with your statement that you are nearly always playing the ball if you hit someone's hand when it's on the ball.Any doubt in my mind makes it tough to call it a deliberate act and a foul.I ain't that good that I can read "intent" in a player on this type of call.:D


[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 16th, 2002 at 07:35 PM]

Eli, I hate to assume, but I believe the reaction was not to your interpretation but to your wording.

When you boil it down, there is no clause in the rule book which states, verbatim, "the hand is part of the ball." If there were, we would be in big trouble. (Would it be a dribble if the player palmed the ball and "bounced" the back of his hand on the floor? BI would nearly be a non-issue, because only the ball is in the cylinder.)

I look at this similarly to a shout of "over the back!" from a coach or fan - yes, there is a foul at times, but not because A1 reached over B4.

Good point and well stated Jurassic Referee.

Eli,
Part of this rule, if we read it closely, I think, protects the "other hand" too! ;)
mick

III"MMM BAAAACK!!!!
and I agree with Bob Jenkins. Where is Rut to torment??
Pistol