Can't believe it, but I heard it
 

I just heard an official say, "He touched the backboard. That's basket interference. The shot is good." Does this make anybody else cringe? No it is between quarters and the game is being held up while the visiting team's scorekeeper is on the floor addressing something with the officials.

CHSEAGLE is that you? :p

I haven't done scorebook in 10 years. I never question the officials on items dealing with play on the court. I may make comments to the other table personnel about my observations, but I don't question the officials about their calls directly.

I leave the direct questioning of the officials to the coaches.

Could you please elaborate?

Iow you'll crap on the officials but you don't have the 'nads to do so to their face.

Got it.

I choose my words carefully when I do make comments. I may say something like "should of been a travel, but probably couldn't see it". Most of the time, it's about missed calls that couldn't be seen due to being out of position or too much traffic in the way to make the call.

I realize that officials are humans & can't call everything.

If I get the opportunity to ask about the call, after the fact, I'll ask about it.

Definitely a practice you need to stop. And you should be discouraging other table personnel from doing it also.

So who is it that you ask?

Was this in a college game on TV? A high school game you were watching?

You know, it never fails to amaze me how someone 50-60 or more feet from a play with a relatively crummy angle of view, and minimal knowledge and even less understanding of the rules, thinks they have a better look and better judgment than a trained official who's right on top of it. If the table were the best place to call the game from they'd put the officials there instead of having them on the court.

For table personnel to make comments on a call or lack thereof from their own myopic viewpoint is unprofessional.

Sheez, Tim, don't hold back. Why not tell us how you really feel?

Because I might accidentally offend someone?:rolleyes:

I'm all for subtlety when it's effective, but sometimes you just have to drag out the old cluex4......or maybe I'm just cranky because I didn't get my post game nap yesterday, since it took 3 hours to get home from my game at Wilsonville HS. :D:D:D

The officials, from that game, if I have a question about something I saw. I'll ask them about the play using case book-like scenarios.

When making the comments I mention also that the officials have final say.

In the gym where I'm normally doing scoreboard operations/timer, I'm not at court-level, but am above it. So there's a bit of an elevated view of plays.

Like I said earlier, I realize officials are human & calls can be missed.

There's a continual mention on here of having "definite knowledge", if an official can't see the play clearly due to varying reasons, then how can "definite knowledge" be used on a play if it cannot be seen.

Can't the same thing be said of coaches or regular spectators?

Here is the difference.....table personnel are part of the crew. All have the same crappy angle, but as Tim said, to do it as part of the table personnel is unprofessional.

Definite knowledge refers to knowing how much time is left on the clock. For example, if a coach requests a time out with two seconds left on the clock, but the scoreboard operator lags on stopping the clock, a good official should glance at the clock when he/she grants the timeout (or any official for that matter). If the official has definite knowledge of how much time is left on the clock, we can reset the clock and go from there. If know definite knowledge exists, then we can't put any time on the clock.

Check out 5-10

True about the angle.

When I do say anything, it's low key where only those at the table hear it, no one else. However, again, this is something I am working on NOT DOING.

Perhaps if the Table crew had an association like the officials, there'd be more professionalism.

Some of the times, I'm not saying anything but someone else does :(

Sure...it doesn't change the point though. If the best position to officiate was from the stands or from the benches, then we'd go ahead and place them there.

I find most of your posts confusing and not worth reading like this one. This should not be something you are working on stopping...for God's sake just shut up at the table and if someone else says something sack up and tell them as part of the table personnel that is unprofessional and if they continue they will be removed.

In other words, I'm getting myself into the habit of not saying anything. I do slip up periodically, but I cuss myself out for doing it.

I've been mentioning to the others that do say something, leave it up to the officials as that's not our call.

Unfortunately, I don't have many options when it comes to the other table personnel as most of the time the person doing scorebook is the only person trained available.

I have long contended that the best place to call a game is the seat next to the HC. Back when I was an assistant coach, I never missed a call from that spot.


(In the last 8 years as an official, I believe I have become much less of an idiot, but the guys who now occupy that seat would argue that, I'm sure.)

It's amazing how many perfect games have been called from the bench :D

And if I ever hear anyone at the table say that, they're done for the game. Keep your comments to yourself. Use the voices in your head if you like, but not your out loud voice.

You couldn't see it because you're the one out of position on your fat azz behind the table.

Here's a piece of advice, take it or leave it.

Instead of saying "should have been a travel but...." Try assuming the ref saw something you didn't; like maybe the player didn't have control or something. If the officials are amenable to your questions afterwards, feel free to ask. If you're lucky, they'll remember the play.

It's cause of what you're stating is one of the reasons why I am posting & asking some of the questions. I'm trying to get a better comprehension/understanding of what it takes to be an official, so that I can be a better part of the table crew & spectator (for times, I'm not doing anything).

Yes, the best position to call a foul/violation is from the floor right in front of the play.

It's also cause of your statement, that I'm training myself not to make statements at the table, or as a spectator.

Remember my post earlier about "discouraging others who do so"?

Before you beat this poor boy to death, it appears to me that he has a pretty good grasp of the rules and is trying to learn. It never fails to amaze me that the officials on this forum never seem to admit that a lot of mistakes in judgment are made in every single game, and that the lower the level of game, the chances are that there are tons of blatant mistakes made. Evaluators, albeit they are trained, sit in the stands and make judgments on officials' performance. Those who have been critiqued for 30 minutes after a game by an evaluator and on tapes/videos by the supervisor understand that. Anyone can see and understand a bad call and it happens, and when you make the correct, but unpopular call, you should have a high enough self-esteem and thick enough skin to understand that if you are a good official, that does not happen often, and when it does, you should have a good laugh about it.

I have never, ever had an evaluator or assignor criticize my judgement on a call. they too recognize that my angle may see something that they don't. What they are looking for are my mechanics and rules applications as well as my comportment on the floor. An evaluator that tells me the travel I missed in the 2q when I felt that there was no control, loses any chance of saying anything to me with credibility.

The evaluations I refer to are those where every whistle is given a plus, zero, or minus, and non-calls that should have had whistles are noted. Combined with films, that is how you improve judgment. No credibility? You won;t be getting called to return next year. Like I said, you have to have a thick skin and true confidence.

Like most absolute statements, this is not always true.

LMAO Well I could of said right in the middle of the play :rolleyes:

Basically I was meaning, by being sarcastic, on the floor.

How about "from a location which provides a clear view"?

A clearer definition: see above LMAO :D:eek:;)

Are you serious? The correct but unpopular call happens as often as once or twice a game. Backcourt calls typically fit into this, as do technical fouls, allowing a player to be in the lane for rebound after rebound, etc.

And can you tell me where in this thread someone denied mistakes are made by officials? No where.

I simply said for chseagle to try assuming the official saw something different, and if he has a question and the officials are open to him asking, to ask away.

Why is it that when TheOracle speaks, it so often sounds like a very different bodily noise? Smells like it too.

About 2 weeks ago home scorer,the official book, couldn't keep his yapper shut.;) I then asked the quiet as a mouse visitors scorer if I could see her book. The visitors book looked oh so perfect. She had very nice handwriting , a pleasant personality and most importantly ...she was quiet.:)

The home team HC wasn't happy about the new official book but he survived.:rolleyes:

Those "plus, zero, or minus" gradings are done by reviewing game tape/film/dvd, not on the sidelines by an evaluator.

Professionalism starts with the individual. You don't need an association or a patch on your shirt to act professional. Just do it! If the others around you at the table choose not to, so be it. Let the AD handle that.
Make yourself a New Year's resolution...I'm am going to conduct myself in a professional manner at the table at all times. From the time I arrive at the gym until the time that I leave. I'm going to work to become the most professional timer that I can be.
Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. When your at the table don't act/think like a fan (it's unprofessional)...act like a timer with a responsible and importantt job to do. When your at the table don't try to be a ref, (it's unprofessional) act like a timer with a responsible and important job to do. We all need/appreciate good timers..especially ones that act in both word and deed in professional manner.....before the game, during the game, during the intermissions, and after the game.

I agree with everything you have said. Many others imply that people in the stands are not qualified or cannot see well enough to know when a mistake is made. It's sanctimonious, and unhelpful to those officials to think in that closed a fashion. As to your examples, I understand--those are not contentious issues in the games I officiate or assign.

I think what chseagle is doing is great.

So you think it's okay for a table person to tell the other people at the table the refs just screwed up? You think it's ok for an official sitting in the stands evaluating the officials on the floor to tell the fans sitting around him that the officials just screwed up?

How many times do the fans get on you for a call you got right? Often, in my experience. That means they think I made a mistake either by rule or by judgment. I can live with that from the fans, but I'm not going to accept if from the table crew. You may as well have your partner telling the table crew (yeah, my partner missed a travel but he was straight lined.) This has nothing to do with being thin skinned, it's about crew integrity.

The questions has been asked already, but why would the table crew assume one of their own knows better than the official on the court?

If a coach asks me why I missed something, and I may have, I'll tell him why. The few times I've had to do this, it works. But I don't want my partners or the table crew either calling out mistakes or making excuses for me.

I'm not surprised.

Is it me or has Chseagle's story changed/developed during this thread? He said something, said something low, is trying to stop, has stopped, says something to the other table crew. Whatever the case may be, if this guy is so good, why not get on the floor instead of sitting at the table? The game needs good officials...if you are as good as your comments indicate. I highly doubt it and would suggest more listening and less talking.

Again, we are in agreement. If a table crew is visibly reacting negatively, it gets addressed. One time I removed the scoreboard operator from he table area for shaking his head about calls after I asked him to stop doing it. I have probably seen that 2-3 times in 30 years. Paid evaulators in stands are doing, a job, and nobody around them will know what they are doing or what their opinions are. They are far to busy observing and filling out sheets. Making general comments? No need to have rabbit ears about anything.

I have stated in a previous post, that due to health conditions, I am unable to be an official. I would love to be an official, but cause of my health, i cannot.

I'm sorry to hear that. You should know that coming to an officiating forum and admitting you throw officials under the bus will not be received well.