Similar to Welpe's situation
 

Didn't want to hijack Welpe's thread so I wanted to start a new one regarding something similar.

Boy's JV match last year. I don't remember all the details, but this is what I remember.

I called a foul on a player, I don't remember against who or for what. as I'm walking to the table, he comes up to my side and bumps me with his chest. Now, I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but I think he said something like "c'mon, he was pushing me" and might have been just demonstrating how he was being pushed or something. That took me by surprise, and the statement that Welpe had said, "surprise is an umpire's worst enemy comes to mind" definitely came to play here (which is what triggered me to make this post). I did keep my composure and continued as if nothing happened, mainly because at the time I wasn't really registering that little chest bump.

Got to the table, and finds out it was his 5th. At that time I started to register that he had just chest bumped me about 10 seconds earlier. I debated about giving him a T or flagrant, but didn't know how to complete it because it was his 5th foul prior to this incident. I forgot at what point a player becomes benched when it is his 5th foul, and didn't want to wrongfully give the coach an indirect. Read later that a fouled-out player doesn't become bench until you notify the coach and player that it is the 5th foul and then start the 20 seconds count.

Thoughts?

No, he becomes bench personnel after you notify the coach. That's why the order is coach, clock, player. 4-14-2 if you care.

My thought is that you should read a rule book. Has nothing to do with your post, but that is my thought and you asked. :rolleyes:

Honestly, when I was typing that, I was thinking "wait, i got this wrong". Yes, it is after the coach is notified. Thank you for correcting me.

Thanks, but I do so regularly. But thanks. :rolleyes:

A few thoughts:

1) Smitty is correct....really get to know the rules.

2) You were correct in not calling something you did not know how to administer.
(See first thought)

3) For me, it doesn't matter WHAT the player says...it's HOW the player says it! It is unsporting, IMO, to come up to you and "chest bump" or get in your face or whatever that player did...WHACK! (..and then refer to thought one again) ;)

4) Another thought...keep posting your situations...it not only helps you learn, but others that are reading these posts as well.

Your arrogance notwithstanding, you need to read it until you understand it.

So this kid bumped you and you didn't do anything? OK, I think you should keep posting your situations, but listen when you are given advice - read the rule book. Your question should have been about recording a flagrant foul after a 5th foul, but before you report it (5th foul) to the table.

Yes, I know I was wrong. It was in close game and the excitement was high for everyone. I just couldn't wait for the game to be over and when this happened, it didn't register immediately. When I was reporting to the table, I was actually thinking "is it too late to give that technical to him for the chest bump?". I don't mean late as in I couldn't give it because I know I could've given it up next play started. What I meant by "too late" is how it would make me look if I gave him a T like 5-10 seconds after it had happened.

It was my mistake, I was just caught by surprised, it wasn't registering in my brain at the moment it happened, and I second-guessed myself. Happens to all of us.

Seems to me that any of us who visit this site, and post questions, realizes that rule book reading is a must.
I also believe that no-one here knows all the rules 100%. If there were no rule questions/concerns about a situation, this valuable/interesting site would be non-existent.
Lastly, I sometimes guess that posters like to add to their post count, and I'm not talking about me...

I know this might sound harsh, but maybe officiating isn't for you. What I'm hearing (actually reading) is an official who 1) possibly got caught up in the emotion of the game and 2) an official who possibly compromised the game because he or she was ready to go home. I come to that conclusion from your words above.

I have called a T with .6 on the clock before and it was well deserved. How much time remained didn't matter one bit.

Of course they do. To some, post count equates to knowledge.

How dare you?! You don't even ****ing know me. I had one bad game last year, that was it. Officiating is my primary job right now, I don't do anything else. It is one of the things I love to do the most.

You say time doesn't matter, neither does it matter to me. if there's .01 second left on a clock and a coach says something to me, I'll T him up even if he's down by 50!

That's it, end of discussion, I'm done for now. I got a game tonight and will be back on afterward if anything unusual comes up.

I couldn't care less about post counts. It only bothers me when someone thinks they own the forum and I look to see they've been on this site for several years and only have like 200 posts.

apparently this was one of the bad ones

Sure. When the people who clearly don't know the rules start giving out advice, that's a problem.

Now that you have shown some passion for the game, read what you wrote again. I didn't make my comments based on anything other than what you said.

If you really want to end the discussion I think the OP has the ability to delete a thread. But I hope you didn't think I would read what you wrote and think the discussion was over. Sorry if I upset you.

regardless of how long they've been a member or their post count!

How is that relevant in any way? Sometimes you just need to shut up and listen.

In this day and age that is a lost art.

How you been Smitty?

No, I knew it was going to get some responses. And I apologize for flipping out like that.

I know I said "I couldn't wait for the game to be over" but I didn't mean it as in "hey, let's get this game over and head to the bar asap!". I meant it as in "once this game is over I can go back to the locker room and just relax". But like you gave the T in .6 seconds left, if something came up with just seconds left, then I would have dealt with it regardless of a close game or not. I can't remember if it was a close game or not, but since I'm remembering emotions were high, I'm assuming it was a pretty close game.

Indeed. I have learned more from this site about basketball rules than from anywhere else. I have been here for years and I absorb a ton of useful info. Only recently, when I am very sure of my answer, will I try and give advice. It helps no one when you guess and guess wrong.

Anyway, things are going well. Adjusting to officiating in Texas. Love working 3-man - it is something you can't appreciate enough until you do it and then go back to 2-man for a game. Sounds like you've been busy. Hope all is well...

I admit to being a literal person a lot and you continue to confuse me. You are saying you would deal with a situation regardless, but this whole thread is based on a situation you had that you did NOT deal with. Is there something I'm missing?

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't deal with it then because at the time I didn't know exactly when that player is a bench player and didn't want to wrongfully make the coach sit. I was talking with my partner and the V officials after the game about it. I'm going to be honest about what i would have done, but I now know this isn't correct.

report personal foul
report technical foul
indirect technical to the coach (when table let me know player had 5 fouls, I would've said to the coach that this is his 5th foul, and he had to sit because he was a benched player during the technical situation)
coach sits
two team fouls total for both personal and technical
fouled shooter gets 2 FT, team gets 2 FT
Ball at half-court.

That is what I would have done, but now I know that everything is correct except for the indirect technical to coach and that he sits. I also probably should give the player a flagrant technical foul instead of a technical. Then, the ball would be taken out-of-bounds underneath the basket to the team who just shot the free-throws because of the flagrant foul.

does this clear things up (not sarcastic)?

Oh boy. It clarifies something but not what you were hoping for.

The throw-in following the technical foul would be administered at the division line.

Didn't you indicate that the player bumped you before you reported the personal foul? If so, above in red is not correct.

And I don't have a clue how you came up with this.

He mentioned that the part in red was what he would have done then but now knows the err of his ways. The rest speaks for itself. One step forward, two steps back...

It doesn't really clear things up because I wasn't looking for step-by-step actions. You either do or you don't.

What's wrong with blue? I would like your clarification please.

Ah, I see that now. Thanks. This thread is confusing me. :D

You state you would inbound the ball under the basket. Why?

Flagrant and intentional fouls are at POI. Only technical fouls are at division line.

Edit: Read 7.5.4b and 7.5.6a

Yes, it's laughably bad.

representing needs to step back and try to understand how many rules he's missed in this one scenario:

(1) It would be a flagrant technical foul. It's still a technical, so the throw-in is at the division line.

(2) Since the coach hadn't been notified of the player's 5th foul, he's not bench personnel at the time of the flagrant technical, so the coach does not receive an indirect technical foul.

We ran into a parent in the parking lot who seemed to be waiting for us. He was quite complimentary, even though his kid's team lost by 18 points -- he was amazed at how much "stress" we must be under. I actually laughed and said that I probably feel the least stress of anyone out there.

Oh dear.

Edit: 7-5-4 b. has nothing to do with this play.

(And just as an FYI, the appropriate way to reference rules is with dashes, periods are for casebook plays. It helps keep everyone on the same page.)

Oh, really? I thought Flagrant technical and personal fouls were all still under the classification of Flagrant, which would put the ball at POI. Thanks for correcting me. But I can't find anything in the book about the difference between flagrant personal and flagrant technical.

EDIT: I said I was wrong about number 2 in my post about the situation. YOU should read everything, so you wouldn't make a statement like that.

thanks for the fyi.

4-19-4

Thank you for the laugh.

Summary:

• Official is bumped after calling foul, but before reporting
• Foul was player's 5th
• Official does nothing
• Official posts situation on website
• Official gets responses, but doesn't receive them well
• Official says he handles situations even though he didn't
• Official posts what he would have done with glaring rules application errors
• Official admits errors in what he would have done, but not all errors
• (Hopefully) official takes every bit of advice given to include reading the rule book for comprehension

Any type of technical foul is a technical foul for administration purposes. It means that any player may attempt the free throws, and the ball is put into play at the division line.

A flagrant foul is simply a special type of a personal foul or technical foul. You'll note in 7.5.4 b. that it references a flagrant personal foul only.

So it would be flagrant technical because the contact occurred during dead-ball. I got it now. Thanks TJ.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

I feel like I am piling on. But...no...contact between a player and an official is not "live ball contact" the way you are suggesting. It does not matter if the ball is live or dead...if a player intentionally contacts an official, it is a technical foul (10-3-7a) and in your situation, I would also deem it a flagrant foul.

Actually it is 10-3-6a what you're talking about, but thanks for the reference.

All fouls are either Personal or Technical.

They *might* also have an additional qualifer -- common, flagrant, intentional, double, etc.

The penalty for a single T includes a throw-in at the division line. IF there's a throw-in for a P, it's near the spot of the foul.

And, there's no POI for any single foul, flagrant or not.

Words of wisdom imhkgo.......

None of us should ever stop trying to learn. And you learn by simply reading the threads posted here or asking questions and then listening to and comprehending the responses. And whether that response came from the rawest rookie or not, you should still evaluate it to see if you can maybe find a nugget of gold amongst the doo-doo. And it's certainly not a bad idea before responding to take the time to confirm that your response is correct by using one of the accepted sources of knowledge...the rule book, case book, officiating manuals and any official handouts available. You'll learn more by looking the answer up than by being constantly corrected for screwing up yet another response.

Continually posting incorrect answers doesn't do that poster or anybody reading his posts any good at all.


You are wise beyond your years, Smitty....:D

I have a request. Please stop referring to POI as part of the penalty for personal fouls. The penalty is a throwin at the disignated OOB spot nearest the foul (except for double fouls, shooting fouls, and common fouls committed when the bonus is in effect.) POI (Point of interruption) is a completely different animal.

Hey...the KING has spoken once again!:D

It's always good to hear from you JR! I miss reading your posts here... I hope you post more often than you have been lately.

Anyway, I agree a person should be careful in posting answers...but, I surely wouldn't want a person to stop posting QUESTIONS about situations, etc.

This representing dude has some things to learn...but, you have to give him some credit...he ain't afraid to ask, post, interact, or even to show his ignorance, so that others may learn.;)

1) Shut up.

Didya miss that too, Dude-ee?:D

2) We all have some things to learn. Representing ain't unique when it comes to that. Smitty, you and the others are just trying to teach him how to learn. Hopefully he'll realize that.

He said dude-ee!

....thank-you sir, may I have another?:p


Merry Christmas!

Sure has been fun lurking and following the progress of this thread! (seriously, I was really busy today and this is the first chance I've had to check the board)

representing,

I hope you will take to heart what Smitty, Tomegun and a host of others have tried to explain to you - and I'm not referring to just in this thread, but others you have originated or participated in. Im sure it's not your intent, but some of your posts come across as a little "overly positive" in nature...and it really doesn't help when they're factually incorrect.

Reading and learning the rules is only a start - to become a good official you need to also comprehend them within the context of the game, and know how to apply them in various situations and circumstances. As others have said, this board can be a great learning resource.

A couple suggestions - take them or reject them as you choose:
1. Read voraciously and post sparingly
2. Don't post "factual" information unless you're 200% sure you're correct
3. Choose your words carefully - how you say something can be just as important as what you say

It appears you've gotten off a little on the wrong foot here, but it's not too late to correct that. Not a single official here has ever called a perfect game, but it's what we continually strive for - and an important part of that is learning from our mistakes.

This is EXCELLENT advice. When I first started on here, I posted a couple of times when I wasn't sure about things and was corrected. I learned quickly that if I'm going to give advice or act like I know what I'm talking about, I had better be sure about it and able to back it up.

representing,
Like they said, read more (Rule and Case Books as well as this forum) and post less. If you're going to ask for advice, be receptive and listen. Oh yeah, I'd be shocked if you only had ONE bad game all of last season. I think most of us will admit to more than that in a season.

representing,

Easy up, now. Do you need some smelling salts? How many fingers am I holding up? That was some *** kicking, eh? :D

We've all been there. No matter how much you study, some random Tuesday afternoon you run into a situation that takes you by surprise and you kick the crap out of it. That's when the learning really begins. ;)

Thanks to the last few posters. I appreciate it. Yes, I will calm down a bit and make sure I'm positive of certain calls.

Wow - that's the nicest thing you've ever said in responding to one of my posts. I appreciate it. Nice to see you posting in here again. Hope you stick around and post more.

Heck, a few years ago I called a T on a senior in the final game of his career with 3 seconds left on the clock when they were losing by 20. :eek:

Post count doesn't necessarily equate to post quality.

Some people just do a lot of reading and only post when they have something different to add.

Some people don't have access to the site as frequently as others and by the time they get to to a thread, the topic is already well covered.