Replacing Injured FT Shooter = Done for game?
 

CYO Varsity Girls (7th/8th Grade) -- NFHS Rules.

Visiting team had a player get fouled hard and complains her wrist hurts and she can't shoot her free throws. The official tells the visiting coach if she's replaced, she can't re-enter the game at all. :confused:

I know if an injured player is judged to have a concussion, her or she can't come back without approval from a DO or MD, but for a non-concussion injury, is the above true, or is it some sort of rule myth?

Myth

The official is incorrect.

3-3-6
A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out.

3-3-4
A player who has been replace, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement.

There is nothing, other than what you noted, that prohibits an injured player from returning and provided the clock has properly started (just like an other player who comes out).

Were they playing by NBA rules? :D

From the NBA rules as posted on-line: NBA.com - Official Rules of the National Basketball Association

Rule 9, Section II-Shooting of Free Throw
a. The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) If the offended player is injured or is ejected from the game and cannot attempt the awarded free throw(s), the opposing coach shall select, from his opponent's bench, the player who will replace the injured player. That player will attempt the free throw(s) and the injured player will not be permitted to re-enter the game. The substitute must remain in the game until the next dead ball.

Did Somebody Say "Myth" ??? Who You Gonna Call ???
 

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, with the very rare exception of a team only having five players eligible to play, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn’t have to play a tick of the clock.

Only if there are millionaires playing the game

Both situations are wrong.

Player can leave if injured and be able to return at the next dead ball after time has been ticked off the clock. This is regardless of whether or not he/she needs to shoot.

And you're wrong about the concussion thing... nothing in the rulebook says if a player has a concussion he/she can't return without authorization by a DO or MD. That's only if a player becomes unconscious during the ball game.

I am surprised no one referenced this.
 

This only applies to an unconscious player, not a player necessarily with a concussion.

Rule 2-8-5 is where you can find this.

Peace

Point of Emphasis for 2006-07
Proper Procedures for Handling Apparent Concussions

ACTION PLAN
If you suspect that a player has a concussion, you should take the following steps:

1. Remove athlete from play.
2. Ensure athlete is evaluated by an appropriate health care professional. Do not try to judge the seriousness of the injury yourself.
3. Inform athlete's parents or guardians about the known or possible concussion and give them the fact sheet on concussion.
4. Allow the athlete to return to play only with permission from an appropriate health care professional.

The Action Plan is not a rule it is a guideline for coaches and school personnel to follow. Officials do not get involved in this aspect of this information.

Could you please support that statement with some official documentation?

For the record, concussions were included as the #1 POE in that season. As far as I know POEs are definitely for the officials as well as the school coaches and administrators.

-------------------

2006-07 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

1. Concussions (See page 71)
2. Uniforms. Last season the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee was concerned with the use of uniforms ...

I will support it from a common sense point of view and words stated by our interpreters. There is nothing as officials we do to tell or diagnose a concussion. For the record this was mentioned in just about all the major NF sports with the same information that very same year. It was made clear to us that this was about the coaches and the schools and training staffs, not the officials. Officials do not tell someone they have a concussion and not allow players to play as a result. Even in #4 of the Action Plan, there is nothing that says this has to be verified by us as officials. And unless you have shown something, there are no rules referenced in that POE. So these are at best guidelines, not rules.

Peace

2006-2007 was 3 years ago. If it was still a major concern, then why isn't it in the rulebook? As far as I'm concerned, I am to not care about concussions. I know they are bad, I had a major concussion 2 years ago, but the rulebook does not say anything about concussions. If I suspect someone may have had a concussion, I'll might mention it to the coach and ask him/her to send the player to the trainer to be evaluated before playing again. But it is not my job to diagnose a concussion.

Because they were never rules. They were things to help coaches, players and trainers identify concussions and what they should do in the case they think a player has received one.

Peace

That helps to prove my point. Thanks

The point is simply that the NFHS doesn't want the player to return to the game without permission from an appropriate health care professional.

That is what the NFHS wrote in its rules book back in 2006-07.

How the official goes about enforcing that is a gray area, but there is no question that doing so is proper, which is what both of you stated was wrong.

Of course, I'm not going to go diagnose such as I'm not qualified for that and so recognize that this directive is problematic for game officials.

However, if I am informed that a player sustained a concussion at some point during the game, then it is my duty to ensure that the appropriate permission is obtained before permitting that person to return to action.

The person who posted that sentiment is 100% correct and the two of you told him otherwise.

I gotta go with Rut on this one. Consider #'s 2 and 3.

2. Ensure athlete is evaluated by an appropriate health care professional. Do not try to judge the seriousness of the injury yourself.
3. Inform athlete's parents or guardians about the known or possible concussion and give them the fact sheet on concussion.

Is the official supposed to do these, too?

This really seem like an odd thing to be in the rule book. Not to minimize the seriousness of concussions, but what next? Swine flu?

"A player exhibiting flulike symptoms, (sneezing, etc.) or any player known to have recently visited Mexico, should not be allowed to participate without first displaying a vaccination certificate.

I thought that it was poor of the NFHS to put it into the rules book and said so back when it happened, primarily due to some of the instructions which obviously shouldn't pertain to game officials, but that doesn't change the fact that it was indeed published in the rules book, and to my knowledge the position of the NFHS on concussions has not changed.

Therefore, if a player does suffer a concussion during a contest that directive would apply, and the game official has the obligation to not allow the person back in without proper permission.

I cannot speak for where you live. But every single rules meeting that I attended that year in all my sports, this was in every single rulebook. And it was also stated that this was not for the officials, it was for the coaches and school representatives that also have to attend those meetings. A couple of meetings I went to there were no coaches or school representatives present, so the interpreters moved on by only mentioning how this was for coaches and school representatives. Having had friends in football get concussions, the only way I figured this out was by talking to them directly. And when both repeated themselves during a playoff game we were losing and all the starters were out of the game, it was clear something was wrong. I would have never had that much interaction with a player in a basketball or football setting. And in many cases I may never talk to most baseball players. And neither of my friends were knocked out of the game or taking off the field. Even in football we might only know if a player comes up wobbly after a hit of some kind. We may never know in basketball where you may have a concussion with not many “visible” signs.

Peace

How are you going to know and if no one tells you what are you going to do?

Peace

Now I'm gonna need a definition of what a directive is.

On the one hand I'm warned against calling a violation if I don't see the play clearly, but on the other hand I'm directed what to do if I suspect that a player has a concussion.

You don't and that was my primary objection to the NFHS having officials deal with concussions in the first place. However, if you are informed, then you are obligated to enforce what the NFHS desires.

Maybe this was not clear in your area, but other than this board, I have never heard anyone suggest that we should do anything with this at all in any of my sports. This directive came and went without much fanfare or notice. I have no idea what we are supposed to do or enforce anything. Even when you gave the information about getting a medical professional to approve a player to play, how the in heck do we even know how to get that information? This is why I say this is only a guideline for the coaches and schools, not for us.

Peace

How do you know how to do anything? By the same means that you obtain all of your other instructions for games.

Concussions POE Only Pertained To School Personnel ...
 

When this concussions POE first came out, we were told, by our local interpreter, to treat concussions exactly like we had previously treated unconscious players. Some of us questioned this. At the next local meeting, after consulting with the Connecticut state interpreter, who had consulted with the NFHS, we were told that the concussions POE only pertained to school personnel, and did not pertain to officials. The only documentation on this that I have is from my handwritten notes from the two meetings, but I'm 100% sure of the updated interpretation.

Myth. :D

This is likely one of those "administrative" items that is treated differently in different areas.

I agree with BillyMac and JRutledge that, for officials, the rule applies to being unconcious, and not to suspected (or confirmed) concussions.

Having a concussion is a medial condition. And since I did not go to medical school or having any formal medical training, I am not going to diagnose a condition I have no training to accurately notice, I am not getting involved in that action. Now if this is what your state or association wants to do that is fine with me. But this is three years old, there are no current rules that reference this material you quoted and I am not in a professional capacity to draw a conclusion of when and when a player has a concussion. I am not going there and going to open myself up for more liability because a player plays or does not play in a sport based on what I might think or not think is a medical issue. Now if a player is knocked out, then I can see that and ask for information so they can play. But you can have a concussion and not be knocked out. I am not going to interject myself in that part of the game.

Peace

There is a big danger in granting officials this authority; if we fail to utilize it in a situation where a player has a concussion but we don't know about it, we're setting ourselves up for a lawsuit.

Thanks for the replies.

To add to the OP...

Interp from 2006-2007:

SITUATION 11: A1 is injured during a play in which he/she was fouled. As a result, A1 cannot attempt the awarded free throws. A6 replaces A1 and attempts the free throws, which are successful. Team A then calls a time-out. At the conclusion of the time-out, (a) A1 is ready to play, or (b) A7 replaces A6. RULING: In (a), A1 may not re-enter the game until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has properly started. Legal substitution in (b); A6 may leave the game at any time. Substitution restrictions only apply to being withdrawn and attempting to re-enter without the clock properly starting. (8-2; 3-3-4)

Five Players Trumps Sit A Tick ...
 

To ad to the Interp from 2006-2007 that was added to the OP: There are rare exceptions to this rule when a team is down to five eligible players due to another injury, or a disqualification.

Only because MTD railroaded a BS ruling into the Case Book. :(

Casebook Citation Please ...
 

I'm having trouble finding the casebook citation. Help.

I figured you'd have this one down being that it's the exception to your sit a tick.

8.2 Situation B

Thanks ...
 

8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s
first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces
B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for
A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3
in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to
immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order
to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still
not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game
and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced
since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

Update!!!
 

It seems that concussions are a serious concern for the NFHS and that changes to the RULES for all NFHS sports will be made to address this.

This should nix the argument of those who claim that the previous POE was not sufficient. The Rules Book will soon have a rule for concussions just as there is for unconscious players.

---------------------
NFHS | Official Signals Modified in High School Soccer


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Mark Koski

INDIANAPOLIS, IN (February 16, 2010)

....

Following are other changes made by the NFHS Soccer Rules Committee:

· A significant editorial change that will affect all sports requires that any athlete who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with a concussion, including but not limited to loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems, must be removed from the contest immediately and shall not return to play before being cleared by an appropriate health-care professional.

Happened to me yesterday
 

B15U Rec. I had a player pushed/tripped and go down yesterday and bloody his nose. We stopped the bleeding and cleaned the floor. He couldn't sit because the only other player on the bench had already fouled out. After a bit of a delay we continued.

Side note - a parent (nurse) came up to my partner and I after the game and said she saw the injured player wipe his nose and then eventually touch the ball. She recommended in the future the player be made to go to the bathroom and wash and also replace the ball. In this situation, two excellent recommendations IMO which I will forward to our Board.

That's great.

I had a player in a playoff game a few years ago who took an elbow to the head (she lead with her head as she dove in for a rebound -- being about 5'2" she flew right into an elbow) and she went off for quite some time. She came back about a quarter later and didn't seem to be the same player she was before she got elbowed.

I didn't really put 2 and 2 together, but in retrospect she had a concussion. Her father is a great guy and is also an official and I talked to him later and she had a broken bone and a concussion and he was in the stands, but she still came back in after being examined by a trainer.

So now the NFHS, in their infinite wisdom, is likely going to open officials up for potential liability if we don't recognize concussion symptoms in the student-athletes in our games. Having no medical training, I do not see how this is a good idea putting any of this in the laps of the game officials. I mean, the teams have coaches, trainers, parents, etc. and we're supposed to be the guardians of concussion-like symptoms?

Makes seeing that the headband/wristband colors all match seem pretty simple.

Can Of Worms, Meet The Can Operner ...
 

Nevadaref: Thanks for the warning.

Who is deemed to be an appropriate health care professional: MD, RN, LPN, trainer, coach with a first aid/CPR certificate in his pocket? Is written documentation required, as in the unconscious rule?

Are Socks Next ???
 

Speaking of which, I heard a rumor that the NFHS may soon put out a Fashion Police all points bulletin on two logos not being allowed on socks. That's what I heard. Don't adjust your dial. Socks!

The Times Have Passed Me By ...
 

I had a game last night where three of the starters on the visiting team wore legal color long sleeved undershirts. I know that's it's legal, but, what's that all about?

Also many young fans in the stands were wearing MLB team logo baseball caps, with MLB license holographic logos still stuck to the brim of the cap. Back in my youth, those logos, if they existed back then, which they didn't, would have come off the brim, along with the price tag, as soon as I walked out of the store. What's that all about?

http://thm-a02.yimg.com/nimage/b8922994356a9f9a

It's the modern day equivalent of Minnie Pearl.

Flat brim, 5950 tag still on, hat crooked on head. And probably a Yankees hat in a color other than Yankees colors. Ridiculous looking. I'm getting old, I guess.

Absolutely agree.

Beats the alternative.

And here all these yrs I thought those brims were to prevent the sun from getting in your eyes. I guess with them on backwards you can run faster (aerodynamics I suppose) and the back of your neck won't get sun burned. Back in the day, who knew? :rolleyes:

"By George, he's got it! By George, he's got it!"
 

That's it. The MLB license holographic logos reflect more sunlight.