10 secound backcourt or not
 

Team B is moving ball up from backcourt, with 35 seconds on shot clock. Team A traps team B in BC & Team B calls time out. Shot clock shows 24 seconds. Official comes over to table & instructs shot clock to be reset to 27 & team B gets their time out.

This happened during Boys' Varsity tonight. Should Team B of been given the time out after having a 10 second BC against them?

I would imagine the official granted the time out and the clock kept running.

Let me guess, the VISITING TEAM is Team B. Correct? Since our State does not have a shot clock, I don't know all of the rules concerning it at the NFHS level, BUT, my guess is that the Shot Clock Timer may have started the clock too early. Since the trail has the 10-second count in the backcourt, he had only gotten to eight when the time out was GRANTED.

Once again, not sure if this would be the correct procedure since we do not have a shot clock. Just trying to logically deduce how the events you describe could have happened.

No.

That said, I'm confused by the question. I don't see that Team B committed a 10-second BC violation.

... or it was actually 11 seconds in the BC and the officiall whiffed and gave the time out.

At that point, the official then glanced to the shot clock and noticed he/she had forgot to count, started late or messed up and then to make it look like he was on top of it, put the time back on the clock.

Just a thought.

For several years I was the scoreboard operator at my school prior to graduating. This has happened in one of the games last season. Visiting team taking ball down court, get's trapped and calls timeout. 24 seconds on the shot clock. the R comes over to me and says to put 26 back on the scoreclock.

While the rule does say "10 seconds", every one of us are not in sync with the clock to have a perfect 10 seconds. I even know some officials in my chapter who counts too fast and it would only be 8-9 seconds off the clock when they extended their hand the 10th time. Some guys count too slow that it would be 12-13 seconds... So it is possible maybe the trail only got to 7 or 8 before the time out was called.

Another possibility. Once again, I don't know the specific rules with a shot clock, but I know there have been situations such as you have indicated without the clock. The trail officials count is the determining factor.

Neither the game clock nor the shot clock matter in this situation, only the count by the official. If the official doesn't reach a count of ten, then there is no violation.


5.10.1 SITUATION B: Team A leads by one point when they inbound the ball in
their backcourt with 12 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1's throw-in
pass is to A2 who dribbles in the backcourt until the horn sounds. The trail official
does not make a 10-second call because he/she "lost the count." RULING: The
game is over. The clock may not be reset as there are no rule provisions to do
this. If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There
is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in
counting seconds.

All I am saying is many refs will look at the clock and make a change to something to cover up a fast or slow count. Not saying it is right, but I have seen it done. and that very well may have been the case in the OP.

Or, the official had an 8 count and determined that based on that, the shot clock must have started early. Perhaps the ball was touched inbounds before team control was established; starting the game clock (properly) and the shot clock (improperly).

Wait a minute...
 

... is there even the slightest possibility that the shot clock operator reset the clock when the ball either hit the ring or passed through.... and didn't hold the restarting of the clock until the ball is under player control inbounds?

Gee, I haven't had that since EVERY GAME I HAVE HAD THIS SEASON!!.
Chronic problem. I talk to SCOs before the game about when to reset, they nod... I talk about reset and HOLD... they often don't even know what that is... sheesh.

OK, maybe it hasn't been a problem in EVERY game...

Doubtful. It's almost impossible to an official to count too fast. It's very noticable, as you almost have to separate your shoulder to count too fast.

Team A ahead.
9.2 seconds on the clock.
A1 inbounds after a made B1 FT.

Does anyone here start a 10 second count?

Yes, but only until I know the clock has started properly.

I would. But I'm only counting for the camera, I would certainly know that I couldn't a 10-second violation.

Of course, depending on the margin, I might not have to count very long as Team B might be fouling.

There's also the small matter of the clock starting on the touch and the count not beginning until there is control. The OP doesn't say if there was any discrepancy there or not, but just because 10 seconds ran off the clock doesn't necessarily mean there is a 10 second violation.

True, but that wouldn't (or shouldn't) lead to resetting the shot clock to 27 seconds, as in the OP.

It could lead to properly granting a TO with 23 or 24 seconds on the shot clock and no 10-second violation.

You might want to check when is the proper time to start the shot clock. ;)

Okay, allow me to ask, then.
Play:
BC throwin for A with new shot clock. Throwin is tipped by a) A2, who does not gain control or b) B1, who does not gain control, before being controlled by A3 (two seconds later for the sake of clarity).

When do you start the shot clock?

In NCAA the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched inbounds. The 10-second count doesn't begin until there's control.

What they do in WA might be different.

a) when the throw-in pass is tipped by A2
b) when the throw-in pass is tipped by B1

From the current NCAA rules:
Rule 2
Section 11. Duties of Shot-Clock Operator
The shot-clock operator shall:...

5. Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is
touched by the ball on a throw-in or when a team initially gains possession
from a jump ball, an unsuccessful try for goal or when possession is gained
of a loose ball after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal.

I have to wonder whether this has anything to do with there being team control during a throwin, but I'm just speculating. I had assumed that for the shot clock to start, team control would have needed to begin.

Having only worked one game with a shot clock, ever, I'm not surprised I had that one wrong. :)

This is from the WIAA website - since the 35 sec. shot clock is new for boys this year, they posted very clear instructions on their website. The rules are pretty much the same as the NCAA rules.

Art. 5 Start the timing device when a player in bounds legally touches or is touched by the
ball on a throw-in or when a team initially gains possession from a jump ball, an
unsuccessful try for goal or a loose ball.

To clarify things, Team B had full control of the ball the whole time.

yes, and apparently for 8 seconds.

All The Time, Every Game ...
 

I do. I always count. You never know when you'll be needing some type of definite knowledge. Ten seconds. Five seconds. Three seconds. Aways count, no matter how little time is left on the game clock.

Ditto on that. If you have counted five and the timer neglected to start the clock on an inbound, for example, there is definite knowledge to bring the clock down to 4.2.

In Washington, the state rules state the shot clock starts when player/team control is established.

I'll refrain from an "I told you so" simply because I was guessing anyway.

Which brings us right back to referee99's earlier post: If the shot clock operator didn't hold the reset until player/team control is gained or misjudged when that occurred (ie: touched vs. controlled) that could easily account for the three second difference. From the description, it appears that is what the trail official observed to occur, which would explain why he had the shot clock reset.

In any case, as has been pointed out by both rule and case book situation, the trail official has the sole responsibility and authority for determining the occurrence of a 10 second back court violation. This is not the job of either the timer or shot clock operator - they need to focus on their own responsibilities and let the officials take care of theirs.

There are a lot of subtle nuances in the practice and art of officiating, and it takes a lot of time and effort to learn to apply them effectively and consistently. Coaches, players, table crew and fans for the most part have no clue unless they've been there.

Rant mode off - nomex underwear on.....flame away!