Bulter Game - taking time off the clock
 

Anyone catch the end of the Bulter Game? Wow, I can not believe they took time off the clock to end the game.

Also, the backcourt with 16 secs left to play, I thought white touch the ball before the ball had back court status.

From what I could see the clock stopped momentary at 14.7 seconds. The officials used a stop watch to time how long the clock stopped, and from what was said postgame they came to the conclusion that the clock stopped for 1.3 seconds. They then reviewed to see if the shot was off in time which it was. It was gone at 1.8 seconds and the clocked stopped when the ball cleared the basket at 1.2. Game over

And just where is "Bulter" University? In Indinana? :confused:

Huge call by those guys. I didn't the benefit of a stop watch to see how long the clock had been stopped but I assumed there would at least be a fraction of a second left. They were definitely right to take time of the clock and if they determined the pause was for 1.3 seconds, they got it correct.

I'm not a BB official so I was curious to know if the jump ball call was correct. I was rooting for Butler so I was happy with the call but wasn't sure if he held it up enough.

From what I can tell, they got the call right. That being said, I would have liked to have heard Xavier's Chris Mack's post-game press conference.

So how did they get there?
 

I saw the end of the game- lots of stuff going on. What is the theory/rule that allows the officials to take time off the clock after the clock stopped, then started, then the time out with 1.2 seconds left?

I understand the explanation- clock stopped for 1.3 seconds, therefore we subtract 1.3 from 1.2 (time left on the clock at time out)- game over.

I understand the use of replay, but the stopwatch idea seems to have saved the day. Does the alternate official or the scorer always have one in NCAA D-1 (or other levels)?

What do we do if this is NFHS? Most of us won't have monitors. I suspect if we officials even notice the brief clock stoppage with all else going on at 14.7, I don't think we could estimate the amount of time, and would probably just play on at 1.2.

Butler is in Indianapolis.

From the Horizon League Network Blog:


Official Referee Explanation of the Butler-Xavier Game

Adam Coppinger · December 19, 2009

Here is the official explanation of the ruling at the end of the Butler-Xavier game:


Statement From Today’s Game Officials

The game clock was erroneously stopped at 14.7 seconds. When we put (on) the stopwatch to see how long the clock had erroneously stopped, 1.3 seconds had elapsed.

The shot by the Butler player was released at 1.8 seconds. The ball went through the net at 1.2 seconds and the clock stopped correctly.

Because we lost 1.3 seconds, that time is deducted from the remaining 1.2 seconds, officially ending the game

This release was handed to all members of the media following the conclusion of today’s game.

We’ll have plenty more from this game, and the incredible finish at Cleveland State, on this very blog over the next few days. Be sure to check back for our thoughts on these insane finishes.

Tags: Butler - Men's Basketball · Horizon League - Men's Basketball


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From my understanding, they did EXACTLY what was supposed to be done.

I know Butler is in Indianapolis. My question was where is Bulter?

"It's A Family Affair" (Sly Stone)
 

He's the one on the upper left:

http://www.timvp.com/familyaf.jpg

My buddy texted me and told me to watch the game and asked if the officials did what they should on the game. When I got home I got on ESPN360 and re-watched the end of the game. I reviewed the play five or six times and not once could I get my stop watch to read anything less than 1.25 even with a slow start and quick stop. With my information the differential of 1.3 seconds was correct. Tough way to lose a game, but well within their jurisdiction, with the use of a monitor.

In high school or any game without a monitor, there is very little we could do, unless one of the officials noticed the stoppage. Correct procedure would be (now correct me if I'm wrong) to stop the game when you noticed the stoppage and take what we would deem as something around 1 second from the clock and then go POI from there. We could use our partner's and the table to help us get the right time on the clock, but we wouldn't have the monitor to help us, so we'd finish the game with the time that we saw the clock at when the timeout was called (the clock wouldn't stop in high school as it comes through the net as it does in college) if we didn't have any knowledge that the clock stopped at 14.7 like it did in this game.

I don't understand
 

The players and coaches are going by the time left on the scoreboard. So now you are telling me that they are basically saying when the clock SHOWED 2 seconds the game was really OVER. Think about this and use COMMON SENSE. There is NO WAY you take time off the clock after they have played for 15 seconds. You let them play it out. After the basket X should of had about 1.2 seconds to in bound the ball. That game should of never ending like that.

No, the game was over when there was 1.3 seconds on the clock. The Butler player's shot had left his hand with 1.8 seconds on the clock (or .5 adjusted time) and went through the net with 1.2 (or .1 after time would have expired).

The clock stopped with 14.7 seconds left for 1.3 seconds, so yes the officials had full jurisdiction to adjust the clock to the correct time. It is a tough way to lose a game because everyone is thinking there is still time left on the clock. Had the Butler player shot the ball with 1.1 seconds on the clock and the officials reviewed the play and discovered that the shot shouldn't have counted and Xavier won, I doubt you'd feel as strongly as to how the game should have ended.

NO NO NO!!!! You can't do that. You are talking about something that happened 15 seconds earlier and had no affect on the game. The players are going by the scoreboard can't you see that. Stick that stop watch where the sun don't shine. Make all the excuses you want but this was mis handled.

Billy, when is the last time you were smitten with a furled umbrella?

Don't you know that the term "gentleman's gentleman" was preferred, no, demanded by Mr. French?

I don't know how the NCAA rule reads in this matter, but I think it is undeniable that this is potentially unfair to one team for this reason.

While it feels unfair, what would be the proper remedy? In this instance it would seem like the "right" thing to do would be to leave the 1.2 on the clock and play out the game. However, had the stoppage happened with 5 seconds, or 2 seconds left, or 0.2 seconds left, what then? How do we decide when to take the time off and when we shouldn't?

The clock change benefited Butler. But had the last shot come with .8 instead of 1.8 showing, it would have hurt Butler as they'd have cancelled the shot. This is one of those rules that is unfair to one team or the other only based on how the play actually unfolds.

I guess you do not understand the rule (which is typical of a fan). The clock has to be adjusted if there is a mistake. IT is not about the scoreboard if the clock malfunctions and replay can catch the mistake. You can complain all you want, but the rules are clear. If the officials did not adjust the clock, they would have not been following the rules. BTW, blame the coaches for this rule, they made it. The NCAA rules are completely made by the coaches, so if they do not like the rule, they can and are the only ones that will change it.

Peace

If the mistake and the resulting adjustment had canceled the score, I see it as much more fair to replay the final 14.7 than to let this happen.

Yes yes yes!

and it was 14.7 seconds earlier.

and what would have been the result had the clock not stopped? The Xavier players would have done something different to stop them from scoring?

I don't like the rule allowing this.
 

I think it is wrong to take time off the board. As in OT, can't take time off the clock if it was set to 8mins and there is less then 4 mins remaining in the OT.

Not sure scientifically if one can stop / start a stopwatch and be accurate to 0.1 secs. When would you start the stopwatch - when you see it freeze in the monitor? Then at least 0.1 would have elasped. When would you stop it? when it shows 14.6, obviously 0.1 would have elapsed.

Regarding fairness: What would have happened if 1.9 secs had been deemed the elapsed time? Would the shot not count? How can one determine if Butler would have shot sooner?

But there is no rule for a "do-over"

Didn't say it was the rule. I said it would be more fair than the rule.

But you have four minutes to fix that.....you better be able to find some break in play. This sequence didn't have any break in the action. What could they have done differently?

I tried it six times....four times I got 1.4 once I got 1.5 and once doing my slowest start and quickest stop I got 1.3......maybe not scientific, but all less than 1.2.

Yep, it wouldn't have counted.

Gotcha....and I agree. Even though I'm sure there would still be controversy regardless because either the team that scores got to set up a play or the defense got to set up their defensive.....the losing team would still be upset.....but I do agree with you there.

Is there any provision in the NCAA rulebook that would allow the officials to re-start the game back at the 14.7 mark?

Of course not.

The officials did the right thing by rule. Whenever someone messes up (in this instance the timer) near the end of the game, one team gets "screwed" no matter how the problem is fixed. In this instance the rules committee has decided that the best of the poor choices is to do what they did.

Shove the rule book up your a** and use common sense. to play the game properly the players have to know how much time they have to shoot the ball. This is the stupidiest thing I have ever heard.

Well it does not work that way. I know if the officials did not follow the rule; they would lose their jobs or be suspended. You really think an officials is going to give up their money for you, or a coach that is making 10 times the amount they are on just this game alone? You are dumber than I thought in the first place. Sorry, that is not going to happen because you do not like the rules. So you can shove the so-called common sense up your ***, because it does not apply here.

Peace

:rolleyes:

Sure you could do this... however, you better pack your bags as you would no longer be working in the conference and probably wouldn't get picked up by any other conference.

It might seem silly, unfair or whatever. But, the set of rules and procedures that make what the officials did were approved by the coaches. As it was already said, if they don't like it, they will change it.

End of story...move on.

Question about the rule as it appears now. What is the time limit for reviewing and making the clock adjustment? Is it only on that dead ball which immediately follows the error?

Rule 2-13-2...

c. Timing.
1. Determine whether the game clock or shot clock malfunctioned. A correction to the game clock must be made in the half or extra period in which it occurred. A correction to the shot clock must be made in the shot clock period in which it occurred.

Would have been interesting to see if they would have waved the shot off if it had been TAKEN with 1.2 seconds remaining by the stop watch.

Quite easy to say when it's not your job/schedule that's on the line if you don't do it by the book. :rolleyes:

Thank you. Your team played well.

Thanks. I didn't think you could but an article today said that they could have.

It is true that the timing correction must be made in the half or extra period in which it occurred and not later, but there is more to the restrictions than just that. The correction actually must be made within the CE timeframe.

For games without a monitor:
================================================
RULE 5
Section 11. Timing Mistakes and Malfunctions
The following articles pertain to mistakes and malfunctions in games played
without a replay/television equipment. For timing mistakes and malfunctions
in games with replay/television equipment, see Rule 2-13.
Art. 1. When an obvious timing mistake has occurred because of the failure
to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected only
when the referee has definite information relative to the time involved. After
the mistake of either starting or stopping the game clock, such a mistake
shall be corrected during the first dead ball but before the next/second live
ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player other than the throwerin.
When the clock should have been continuously running, the mistake
shall be corrected before the second live ball is touched inbounds or out of
bounds by a player other than the thrower-in.
=====================================
For game with a courtside monitor:

Section 13. Games with Replay/Television Equipment
Art. 1. Courtside replay equipment, videotape or television monitoring must
be located on a designated courtside table (i.e., within approximately 3 to
12 feet of the playing court), in order to be utilized by game officials. An
on-screen graphic display on the monitor may be used only when the display
is synchronized with the official game clock.
Art 2. Officials may use such available equipment only in the following
situations:...
c. Timing.

1. Determine whether the game clock or shot clock malfunctioned. A
correction to the game clock must be made in the half or extra period
in which it occurred. A correction to the shot clock must be made in
the shot clock period in which it occurred.
2. Determine whether a timing mistake has occurred in either starting or
stopping the game clock. Determination is based on the judgment of
the official. After the mistake to either start or stop the game clock,
such a mistake shall be corrected during the first dead ball or during
the next live ball but before the ball is touched inbounds or out of
bounds by a player. When the clock should have been continuously
running, the mistake shall be corrected before the second live ball is
touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player. No timing mistake
correction shall be carried over from one half or extra period
to another. Such a mistake shall be corrected before the start of
intermission.

Agreed. I'm pretty certain they missed the back court call. As soon as the first defensive touch happened, the T went into his "tipped ball" mechanic that he repeated about 28 times while ignoring the fact that white touched it last in the front court and first in the back court, as if it didn't matter.

Did anyone else thing there should have been a foul called on #25 as he went after the ball and took out the legs of the Butler player? Or that the Butler player may have traveled as he had the ball while "seated" and then stood up to pass?
I really thought there should have been a foul but that is why I was home enjoying the snow and they were doing a big time game!:D

Not a foul. Maybe a travel but the ball was really loose so I can live with what was not called.

Peace

The player for Butler was in a low squat, but I don't believe that either of his knees were touching the floor when he obtained control of the ball. If you look closely, you will see that his right leg is on the opponent, not the floor, and we can't see his left knee from this camera angle.

Is the back court violation rule the same in NCAA as it is in NFHS? Specifically, does the fact that it was tipped by the defender off of the offensive player have any impact?

Yes, it's the same.

If the ball is tipped by the defender and touches the offensive player in the frontcourt and the offensive is the first to touch in the backcourt it is a violation.

Team-control, last to touch in your frontcourt, first to touch in your backcourt = violation.

Fixed your response for you Bob!