Foul or No Foul?
 

4th quarter, tie game. Do you agree or disagree with this call?

YouTube - Campionship

I figured the call should not have been made for the following reasons:

1) The ref under the net should never be making this call. Doesn't the other ref have a better view of the play?

2) When the score if 57-57 with under 20 seconds to go, unless there's blood or an egregious foul, I'd never blow my whistle!

If anything, in a case like this, if I were the other ref, I would have overruled the ref under the net and either called 'jump ball' (as the ball was pinned) or 'inadvertent whistle'.

What would you do if you were a fanboy?

So you would rather decide the outcome of a game as opposed to letting the player's actions decide the outcome of a game?

Please give rulebook or casebook example to support this policy.

To salvage something useful from this, what does everybody think about the contact after the driving offensive player passes off the ball?

I'm going to assume you are not an official, since you're clueless with regard to everything you wrote.

1) Officials have primary areas of coverage. The foul occurred in the Lead official's primary. The Lead is the official on the end line. It was his call.

2) This is a foul. To allow the defender to rake both arms of the shooter and not call the foul is an injustice to the shooter. The defender made a bad play. Neither the shooter nor his team should not be penalized for it, especially when the defender is beaten and #55 clearly has an advantageous position.

Further:

One official CANNOT overrule another.

This isn't a "jump" ball. A jump ball occurs when the referee tosses the ball between to opponents to start the game or overtime.

This is also not a held ball. The contact is on the shooter's arms. It is not on the ball, nor is the ball ever pinned anywhere.

There is no inadvertent whistle in basketball. That's a football term. There is no accidental whistle here. A foul was called, and called correctly I might add.

Here endeth the lesson.

Incidental. The defender goes straight up, the dribbler does not displace him. There is no advantage/disadvantage.

I'd say it was an outstanding call, but frankly it was an easy call. Any ref who wouldn't make that call just because the game is close should hang up his whistle and announce to the world that he is a coward.

Any ref who would try to overrule the calling official on this would never work this level of basketball, so that's not really relevant.

The ref "under the net" was in perfect position to make the call.

Which is a good reason to not quit your day job.

Am I watching the same video? Where was the ball pinned? Just making up s**t to suit your biased view of a play is not generally part of officiating ANY sport. If I were you, I'd just concentrate on getting my order right at the drive-thru.

right call
 

not much to argue about, the call was right and solid. However, the ref should have done a better job of selling it. He knows how much time there is, he looks up at 18 sec. We have an expression here, "referee the key", he is way to far out. those are things an evaluator should deal with.
the call was solid tho, pass on it means you decide the game. The kids worked hard to penetrate the key and get a shot off, they deserve the foul call

yawn........foul.

Bad Zebra - Obviously you're unfamiliar with the term 'pinned' since it's not in the NFHS rule book or case book. Try to think a little outside the box.

BktBallRef: One official may not OVERRULE the other? Tell me then what happens if 1 official calls block and one calls charge and each is 100% adamant about their call and unwilling to change? According to your logic it's a stalemate and the game is stopped right there.

And you are definitely one confused and ignorant official. A jump/held ball is indicated by the 'jump-ball' signal. Are you that ignorant of NFHS terminology? I can already tell you're one of those refs that wants the focus
of any game on himself. See http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867 for more
info on basic terminology. Apparently scorers and timers know more than yoursef.

And I agree with Jallen - I don't so much disagree with the call as I do the positioning of the official. "Referee the key".

Remember: You are watching the call from a better angle than the lead ref. From the lead ref's angle, is that a foul? Can you see the contact from his/her
vantage point? Or are you going by your hypothesis that a guard can't pin a centre?

Good grief I know what the fanspeak pinning is about and there's no pinning going on here, this is an easy call.

And I can tell you about a block and a charge...no stalemate its called a double foul. Are you JAR in disguise?

You had your chance now go away.

I second

since you brought it up
 

No disguises here. The play he describes, where each official is adamant about his own call, is the one time I see where double foul is your only option, even though it still doesn't make sense.

Is there really a question here? Easy call.

Actually, he's in the best possible position given 2-whistle realities. With a third whistle, this would be the C's call. Lead doesn't have a chance to come across, so his best chance is to stay wide so he doesn't get too close. In reality, he's got a great angle on this play. He's deep enough not to get straightlined by any other players.

On a lighter note, I love the dramatic music during the free throw.

Wow, bad grammar and bad spelling.

BZ's point is that the ball wasn't pinned. After the shooter's arms get raked, it falls loose. It's not the term, it's the facts you're struggling with; but that would hurt your argument so you should probably ignore it.

And the rules very specifically state an official may not overrule another official. Your ignorance of this fact isn't surprising, however. And in your little hypothetical play, the solution is a double foul. In spite of your obvious belief that officials are egomaniacal alpha males, that situation wouldn't happen.

Actually, the lead official (that's what we call "the official under the net") has a great view, but I addressed this already.

As for your the paragraph in blue, you're contradicting yourself. Allow me to quote you:

:D :D :D :D

Where else can you get this type of entertainment?

It's almost as good as March. :)

OK Enlightened One. Bring us out of the dark abyss of ignorance and tell us whether by "pinned" you mean HELD BALL between two players or "pinned" against the backboard on a blocked shot attempt.

In either case, there's no evidence in the video. But we're glad that you stopped by for this teaching moment and shared your obviously vast officiating expertise. We'll all be better for it and sure to make the right call the next time we do a game that you're attending.

imgrund,

I'm in complete agreement with the majority here:
1. This was clearly a foul and an easy one to call at that
2. It was in the L's primary area and he was correctly positioned to call it

From your original and subsequent posts, you clearly have no conceptual basis in reality when it comes to either the practice or principles of officiating, and your apparent knowledge of the rules of the game of basketball isn't much better. I could itemize, but others here have already done so quite accurately and succinctly so there's no point in making this post longer than necessary.

The bottom line is that you came to an official's discussion site with a question, apparently expecting justification and support for your preconceived opinions. You were given honest, knowledgeable and correct answers by officials with many years of experience. Instead of being upset that they didn't agree with you, try learning from the information provided to help expand your knowledge and understanding of the game. If you come here you will get honest answers - if you're looking for sympathy, go find a "fan boy" site.

Did anyone else get the impression...
 

... that the thrower was going to shoot his 2nd?
I never heard a horn with that dramatic music playing, but....

You Read My Mind ...
 

I did see all zeros on the game clock, and no rebounders on the lanes, so the game horn must have sounded. In fact if you listen carefully, you can hear the horn sound a split second after the whistle (which can lead to another question). I wondered the same thing. It looks like the trail is signaling a second shot, and the lead hangs around to get the ball back after it ended up in the hands of the shooter. In any case, the two officials don't seem to be "heading out of Dodge" in any big hurry. Of course, the home team did win, so maybe they wanted to stick around to take their bows.

Now, who wants to post something about the split second difference? Let the games, and the fun, begin.

But, assuming that there was not another call made that the video does not show, we know that the horn did indeed sound. And how do we know this?

Raise your hand. Don't shout out the answer, Billy.

I clicked on the link expecting a bang bang call, and all we get is THAT? :confused:That's about as easy as they come. Correct call coming from the correct official.

"OOOOOOHHHHH! OOOOOOHHHHH! OOOOOOHHHHH!" (Arnold Horshack)
 

But you never call on me.

And don't edit your post to make it look like you already had the answer before I gave you a hint, Billy.

The horn is clearly audible in the video, during the second, real time showing (37 sec mark).

I actually teach mechanics for my state. What you said here is so false it is not even funny. If you do not like the positioning of the official, hire another official to work the game so you have 3 officials instead of two. Obviously this talent is too good to have only two officials on the play. Secondly, the positioning of the official is the best you can get in this situation. He was where you would want someone to be. The problem is with 2 person crews, is an officials has to cover so much more. This was an obvious foul because the defender swung his arms and got his arms instead of the ball. Whether the ball was pinned or not is not relevant to this play or even in high school rules. Then again you called everyone here ignorant and you do not even know this little fact of the rules. ;)

Peace

I've never had a game end this way.
 

Advice please on mechanics of administering free-throw, and what happens if made.
Nod, thumbs up to scorer and go?
Statement such as "ballgame!" and go?

What would be appropriate here?

agreed

Get Out Of Dodge ...
 

Rule 10 PENALTIES: (Summary)
1. No free throws: e. After time has expired for the fourth quarter (or extra period), unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

Once the first free throw is made, the second free throw is not awarded because it will not affect the outcome of the game. White wins by one point.

Rule 2-2-4: The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

The closest official to the table should make eye contact with the table crew to be sure that there are no problems, and then "Get out of Dodge". No need to get the basketball, it's not your job. No need to get jackets, they should have been left in the locker room at halftime. No need to sign the scorebook, that should have been done pregame. No need to watch the handshake line, unless you are unfortunate enough to officiate in the the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. And under no circumstances should you come back onto the court once all the officials leave the visual confines of the court. We had a Connecticut official do that several years ago, and it wasn't pretty. Any problems at that point are out of the control of the NFHS, and the officials, and will, if needed, be dealt with, at a later time, by the state association.

Since it's a tie game with no time left (and the horn has sounded), no one is on the lane (I assume, since I didn't watch the video). Everyone (except perhaps the OP), will know the gmae is over. Watch the ball go through the net, make eye contact with your partner to be sure neither of you has a violation, and head for the locker room.

Dumbest Fan Award
 

I was thinking we (officials) should start a Dumbest Fan Post Award. This is positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the DUMBEST post I've ever read! A third grader could have called that foul!! Go away Butt-Boy!

Dumb And Dumber ...
 

You've only been around for two years, and only have 100 posts. There have been much dumber posts. Much, much dumber. Old School was my favorite. JurassicReferee finally scared him away.

I wonder sometimes if these people aren't just bored and purposefully stupid. It's like throwing red meat into a dog kennel.

Waaay ot
 

Which begs the question...Is it worse to knowingly act as a troll or to be oblivious as to one's condition??

and where has chseagle been?

Good one. Especially after so many hints and outright statements indicating the behavior have been made.

Bored on a Sun morning so I watched that silly video again...

Screen by 55? Probably depends on how the we called it throughout the game but wanted opinions

after breaking it down never seems to fully establish a legal screening position and then kinda slides the right knee out

It wouldn't of been my first illegal screen of the night but could of been my last

It was an easy call to make. Do people really want it to be open season on the last possession after playing the rest of the game a completely different way? I guess if you're on the "wrong" side of the call, you do.

I think the positioning is about as good as it gets for 2 person. Solid call, although he might have sold it a bit more.

Agreed! I saw nothing wrong through out the play.

No, it doesn't.

Beg The Question // Get it right.

Children should be seen, not heard.

When one official calls a block and another calls a player control foul, it's reported as a double foul.


4.19.8 SITUATION C: