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-   -   Questioning my T (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/55996-questioning-my-t.html)

zm1283 Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643826)
Girls JV game last night. Visiting team only has 7 players, and they are obviously overmatched from the get-go.

It's also pretty obvious that the V coach is wanting to rely on us to keep the game close. He is chirpy all game, and my partner and I give him each a warning in the first half.

With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can. I probably should have dinged him right then as we had already both warned him, but I didn't. I told him, "Coach, that's your final warning." He told me, "No, I can do that because I'm frustrated with my girls, not at your foul calls."

Yeah, right, but I didn't say anything. I was suffering from a misplaced sense of sympathy for his girls, who didn't even have an assistant coach to rely on if this clown got tossed. Shouldn't have been thinking that way, but I was nonetheless.

Third quarter, his girls are actually starting to make a comeback. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few. One on particular play, the defender rides one of this coach's girls from the top of the three point line to the baseline with her forearm in her side. It was not in my area, and my partner chose to pass on it. As she reached the baseline, she traveled, and my partner got it. (she traveled because of her momentum, not the handcheck, BTW).

Coach is visibly upset and calls a timeout just to give it to us. His voice is definitely raised, but he's not saying anything out of line. He tells us that he knows there is handchecking going on out there, and we're choosing to ignore it. He's partially right, and I really do take his comments to heart as he's talking to us.

But, as he walks away, he yells loud enough for at least the first 6 or 7 rows to hear "SO DO YOUR JOB!!!"

I whacked him.

What do you think?
Don't use the "That's your final/last warning" thing. It backs you into a corner. Kind of like in baseball where it's discouraged to use the "Not another word, coach" line.

Just warn him once and whack him.

FWIW, if there is a hand check, call it. You may be there 5 minutes longer but at least it will keep people off your back because you're blowing your whistle.

Welpe Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643860)
I realize we're not supposed to care "how it looks," but I'm still new and trying to get this perception out of the back of my mind, especially when I whack him and I'm getting multiple people from the stands screaming "That's why you're still reffing JV ball!!!"
I know it is hard to tune out the fans but take to heart that you're the one doing it out there, not them. It's really easy to sit back and yap. It's a bit more difficult to actually go out and do it.

fiasco Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75 (Post 643867)
This one was avoidable. had you whacked him earlier, this one would've probably never happened.
Thanks, but I think I have all but acknowledged this. My question is, given the circumstances, was the T warranted or since I gave him the leash should I just have let him run with it?

JPaco54 Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643826)
. This is girls JV basketball, so we're not calling every single handcheck, but we've called a few.
Not calling the handchecks in JV girls, or not calling all of them, would amount to too many fouls and or slow the game down? This is a tough balance when you want to keep the flow of the game going and you want to be fair to both teams. Last weekend my MS G game was very physical and lots of handchecks and grabbing. So we decided to start calling them and help the girls play regular basketball not rugby. It is a tough call at times but I have learned from this forum to be aware of it as well as from experience.

As far as the T - I agree with the other folks that it may have gone too long. But a T should have been called.

26 Year Gap Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643860)
I think the frustrating thing for me is I hate the perception that I am gunning for a coach. When you have a coach like this guy, it's almost impossible to get away from that perception.

Either you let him ride you like a donkey all night (which I'm not willing to do) or you look (to any casual observer of the game) like you're out to get him.

I realize we're not supposed to care "how it looks," but I'm still new and trying to get this perception out of the back of my mind, especially when I whack him and I'm getting multiple people from the stands screaming "That's why you're still reffing JV ball!!!"

I know I shouldn't let it affect me, but some nights, it just does.
Just report it like any other foul and take the emotion out of it. Do not stare at the guy. Call it, report it and change places with your partner who will now give him the sit down speech.

I had one about 2 weeks ago. The guy was chirping like crazy early in the game. My back was to him as trail and I said loud enough for him to hear "That's enough, coach." I advised my partner at the next break, which was not a long time. I was then reporting a foul on one of his players and he started up again in a loud voice and was standing up and it was difficult to report the foul uninterrupted. I finished reporting the foul, blew my whistle, calmly made the T sign and we had no more problems the rest of the night. About 3 minutes into the 2nd qtr.

The more games you do, the more confidence you will have. And it will not look like you are gunning for anyone.

Ignats75 Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643871)
Thanks, but I think I have all but acknowledged this. My question is, given the circumstances, was the T warranted or since I gave him the leash should I just have let him run with it?
As Guido always says, "Its better to pay late than not pay at all." ;)

fiasco Fri Dec 18, 2009 02:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 643874)
Just report it like any other foul and take the emotion out of it. Do not stare at the guy. Call it, report it and change places with your partner who will now give him the sit down speech.

I had one about 2 weeks ago. The guy was chirping like crazy early in the game. My back was to him as trail and I said loud enough for him to hear "That's enough, coach." I advised my partner at the next break, which was not a long time. I was then reporting a foul on one of his players and he started up again in a loud voice and was standing up and it was difficult to report the foul uninterrupted. I finished reporting the foul, blew my whistle, calmly made the T sign and we had no more problems the rest of the night. About 3 minutes into the 2nd qtr.

The more games you do, the more confidence you will have. And it will not look like you are gunning for anyone.
I don't think confidence is the problem. I was evaluated just the other night by one of the members of our board who said my confidence is varsity-level. And I did just that on reporting the T. I signaled to the bench, told my partner "Go talk to him" and went down and started administering the free throws while everyone yelled at me. No stare down, no emotion.

I would just rather handle the situation better next time so the perception of "gunning" for the coach isn't there. Perhaps a quicker T would accomplish that.

mbyron Fri Dec 18, 2009 03:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643826)
With under 30 seconds in the first half, I call a foul and as I'm reporting to the table, he is sitting down and kicks the bleacher with the back of his foot as hard as he can.
Technical foul for unsporting conduct: 10-3-6a prohibits "Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment" (emphasis added).

26 Year Gap Fri Dec 18, 2009 04:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643880)
I don't think confidence is the problem. I was evaluated just the other night by one of the members of our board who said my confidence is varsity-level. And I did just that on reporting the T. I signaled to the bench, told my partner "Go talk to him" and went down and started administering the free throws while everyone yelled at me. No stare down, no emotion.

I would just rather handle the situation better next time so the perception of "gunning" for the coach isn't there. Perhaps a quicker T would accomplish that.
I think you will find that you will be much more relaxed with a quicker T. Doesn't mean you quick T everyone, but some coaches need one so they can focus on coaching. The games get better, as mine did, once the ABS level was reached.

mathuc Fri Dec 18, 2009 04:22pm
I had a game a few weeks ago where I wish I would have given the head coach a T much earlier in the game as he was polite and professional the rest of the game after being a howler monkey for the first 3+ quarters (and his team went on a huge run after the T and won the game). He didn't have an assistant so he knew he was on thin ice and the run by his team meant a loss if he got tossed... so it was nice that he turned his demeanor around after the T. We talked after the game and he asked why he didn't get a warning. I told him he didn't deserve a warning for what he said, and we shook hands and that was that. Something to learn from.

fiasco Fri Dec 18, 2009 05:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathuc (Post 643967)
I told him he didn't deserve a warning for what he said, and we shook hands and that was that. Something to learn from.
My response to this is always "I've never read anything in the rule book about a technical warning, just a technical foul."

26 Year Gap Fri Dec 18, 2009 05:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643985)
My response to this is always "I've never read anything in the rule book about a technical warning, just a technical foul."
My interpreter in another association referred to this as a 'reminder'.

Adam Fri Dec 18, 2009 05:36pm
My two bits. Early on, once you realize he's a chirper, find a moment to get in front of his bench and talk to him. "Coach, I can't have you officiating this game." Or "Coach, I understand you're not going to agree with all of our calls, but I can't have you question every single one." Or "Coach, if you have a question, I'll answer if I have a chance, but we aren't going to have these constant comments."

If that doesn't work, two free throws almost always works.

biggravy Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 643871)
Thanks, but I think I have all but acknowledged this. My question is, given the circumstances, was the T warranted or since I gave him the leash should I just have let him run with it?
I think this is a very good question. Personally, I find the T that I seem to question myself about later is the one I give late in the game after I have taken crap for three quarters. I have now realized this and I tend to be less worried about handing one out if it is earned. A few years ago, I would tend to take too much crap and then whamo. I feel like I either get them when they first deserve it, or else I have sent a message that their behavior is within acceptable limits then suddenly I change my mind. Does that make sense?

I know there are times when a coach will push it but then suddenly get out of line. Stick them, fine. I guess what I am saying is there shouldn't be a cumulative effect. Either they are unsporting or they are not. Pretty much, if you are questioning yourself whether you should have stuck them or not, especially if you are still wondering well after the game... then yes you should have stuck them. Kicking the bench = tweet! But in all honesty, I probably would have gotten this coach earlier than that.

Adam Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:09am
Even if you'd let it go throughout the game, his final comment earned a T, all by itself. It was personal, and he's showing you up. You'll notice calling the T settled him down. My guess is he was going to continue to push it until you broke. The trick is to settle them down before you break. Call the T before he gets under your skin if you recognize he's not going to stop.


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