Is this a carry?
 

Little debate on a call last night on a pickup game.

I was dribbling the ball and saw a guy open and went to pass it one handed. I don't know how but i dribbled the ball a little hard right before I tryed to one hand pass it and completely missed the ball and the ball bounced up to around shoulder level or a little higher.. My hand went under the ball not touching it and then came back down and i regained my dribble off the bounce and no steps were taken. Some kid called me for carrying.

My defense was i didn't even have control of the ball or touch it between the time it bounced off the floor and it hit hit the floor again.

Now I did a little research here and I found a website that has missunderstood rules.

http://www.dallasref.com/Resources/B...ball_rules.pdf

8) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand,
and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a
player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a
dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not
possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

So if im reading this right that was not a carry correct?

If you did exactly what you said you did, you are correct that it is not a carry. But I would have had to be there to see it myself

Bouncing the ball high is not palming/carrying. As long as you kept your hand on top of the ball....nothing.

A carry is a carry
 

If it looked like a carry it was a carry. The KID in his judgement, as he was there and saw it, called it as he saw it, you missed the ball and gained an advantage, as he saw it, whether it is a legal carry or not. Or, as you secured the ball to pass it, you took an extra step, therefore he could have called a travel as well, in his judgement. By definition as you described per the rules, it may not have been a carry. You can not argue his call, it was his judgement as he saw it.

Ugly is not a violation. :)

Wow. :eek:

Misunderstood Rules
 

I have printed off the list of misunderstood rules. I have asked my administration for permission to post them in our gym lobby with signs that say: "Learn these rules before you decide to criticize the game officials." and "Go to: (our state association's web site) to apply to become an official if you can doa better job and want the "easy money" that these ladies and gentlemen get."

I agree.

But, only because it was a pickup game and who knows WTF the rules are.

I hope you complained and yelled at this kid to the point where he will never pick up a whistle again and attempt to learn and improve. Because, we certainly wouldn’t want any officials in our world that started out making such a perceived horrible mistake at such a high level and important game.

It was about the KID
 

I think we understand the issue here...the KID called him for carrying. It wasn't about the violation, it was about the KID. Maybe a power struggle of some sort. B82, It is OK, you really need to let it go, its OK...no really it is OK, just let it go.:)

I really believe it is about the KID, one of our brother/sister officials. B82 found the rule,explanation before hand and just wants to take it out on the young official.

Except for the fact that the OP appears to be correct in that the official kicked the call. Why is everyone piling on the OP - he was correct in his explanation and he didn't violate.

So right or wrong, we beat up people asking questions if they question an official's knowledge of the rules?

I think "some kid" in the OP means "a player on the other team," and there's no evidence of complaining or yelling.

I don't care if you put your hand under the ball. As long as it doesn't come to rest there. On top/side/bottom doesn't matter.

If the hand is under the ball, the ball comes to rest approximately 100% of the time.

From the OP

Little debate on a call last night on a pickup game.
...

Smitty, JPaco54,
What official? OP concerns a pickup game.

Yeah it finally dawned on me. Never mind.

Sorry for bringing in a "pickup game" into this. If its better i will just lie and tell you that it was during league and the official missed the call..

I didn't really argue to much because i didn't know for SURE and gave up the ball. I have looked into officiating before because i have played organized ball for so long but when it comes to actually knowing the rules i find myself in aw in how much i really don't know.

The only reason the kid called anything was because the ball went near or above my shoulder. His definition of a carry was dribbling to high.



Btw, Those misunderstood rules, are they pretty accurate? Because I was wrong on a ton of stuff? I wish they would post these in most gyms so people could go to them if they have a question. It would at least take a down the % of uncertainty in a call.

Edit. Nevermind You have that exact list of rules on here already..

Approximately.

The point I was really trying to make is that there is a fallacy that hand on top to 90 degrees is always okay, and more than 90 degrees to all the way under is always not okay. It's just not true.

And nobody questions this?

Gaining an advantage is not one of the criteria needed for a palming violation. If the ball comes to rest, the dribble has ended. If the dribble has ended, the player can't travel or dribble again.

Advantage/disadvantage has absolutely nothing to do with this call.

Methinks the Dallas refs misunderstood the rules also.

Silly monkey Dallas refs!:D

Not all Dallas refs...just the rules interpreter who wrote that cute article. :p

And WTF? You came back just for that??? :D

Bob,
Have you been taking lessons from Mark? Caught me off guard with that one!!(true as it is)

Not to worry. I looked much worse on a backcourt thread a few post back.

This list seems to have been made from a forum member here.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...all-rules.html

Billy, you may want to revise your list. How did that slip through?

I've wanted to hang a sign on my back with something like this for biddy rec games. Those games at my local school district are absolutely bad to do and not worth the $20 we get paid per games. Coaches are horrible, parents are horrible, and it's only one referee with a coach of a neutral team forced to volunteer ref with the one certified ref. And what's funny is that the coach will come to me before the game and say "well, I don't know the rules like you do, but I'll try my best". Then I'll get that coach in the next game and he'll be yelling all over the place as if he did know the rules better than I did. I hate ref'ing that rec league, but I do it anyways, because it's for the kids, not for me, the coaches, etc.

It looks like it might be time to start serving some T.

Eh, I go by the philosophy that this is for the kids. I tell the coaches to calm down, and if I have any problems with any parents I just get the rec staff member to take care of it. If coaches are still pretty bad, then I use the technical, but only as a last resort.

When working with little kids, I'm less inclined to put up with much at all from the coaches. I have found the games go more smoothly pretty quickly. Future games are even better. That's just me, though. It turns horrible coaches into silent coaches.

well put. I couldn't have said it better.

The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules (Part I)
 

It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

A player cannot touch the ball, ring, or net while the ball is on the ring or within the basket. A player cannot touch the ball if it is in the imaginary cylinder above the ring. These are examples of basket interference. It is legal to touch the ring or the net if the ball is above the ring and not touching the ring, even if the ball is in the imaginary cylinder above the ring. It is legal to hang on the ring if a player is avoiding an injury to himself or herself or another player.

The backboard has nothing to do with goaltending. Goaltending when a player touches the ball during a try, or tap, while it is in its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level and has the possibility of entering the basket. On most layups, the ball is going up after it contacts the backboard. It is legal to pin the ball against the backboard if it still on the way up and not in the imaginary cylinder above the basket. Slapping the backboard is neither basket interference nor is it goaltending and points cannot be awarded. A player who strikes a backboard, during a tap, or a try, so forcefully that it cannot be ignored because it is an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration, may be assessed a technical foul. When a player simply attempts to block a shot and accidentally slaps the backboard it is neither a violation nor is it a technical foul.

The front, top, sides, and bottom of the backboard are all in play. The ball cannot pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction. The back of a backboard is out of bounds as well as the supporting structures.

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt.

Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

A player inbounding the ball may step on, but not over the line. During a designated spot throwin, the player inbounding the ball must keep one foot on or over the three-foot wide designated spot. An inbounding player is allowed to jump or move one or both feet. A player inbounding the ball may move backward as far as the five-second time limit or space allows. If player moves outside the three-foot wide designated spot it is a violation, not travelling. In gymnasiums with limited space outside the sidelines and endlines, a defensive player may be asked to step back no more than three feet. A player inbounding the ball may bounce the ball on the out-of-bounds area prior to making a throwin. After a goal, or awarded goal, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from any point outside the end line. A team retains this “run the endline” privilege if a timeout is called during the dead ball period after the goal. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate outside the boundary line.

The defender may not break the imaginary plane during a throwin until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass. If the defender breaks the imaginary plane during a throwin before the ball has been released on a throw-in pass, the defender’s team will receive a team warning, or if the team has already been warned for one of the four delay situations, this action would result in a team technical foul. If the defender contacts the ball after breaking the imaginary plane, it is a player technical foul and a team warning will be recorded. If the defender fouls the inbounding player after breaking the imaginary plane, it is an intentional personal foul, and a team warning will be recorded.

The inbounding player does not have a plane restriction, but has five seconds to release the ball and it must come directly onto the court. The ball can always be passed into the backcourt during a throwin. This situation is not a backcourt violation.

If a player's momentum carries him or her off the court, he or she can be the first player to touch the ball after returning inbounds. That player must not have left the court voluntarily and must immediately return inbounds. That player must have something in and nothing out. It is not necessary to have both feet back inbounds. It is a violation for a player to intentionally leave the court for an unauthorized reason.

After a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throwin from an out of bounds spot nearest the violation. This is especially true for a backcourt violation, where the ball may not necessarily be put in play at the division line, but, rather, is always put back in play at the spot nearest the violation.

A moving screen is not in and of itself a foul, contact must occur for a foul to be called. If a blind screen is set on a stationary defender, the defender must be given one normal step to change direction and attempt to avoid contact. If a screen is set on a moving defender, the defender gets a minimum of one step and a maximum of two steps, depending on the speed and distance of the defender.

It is legal use of hands to accidentally hit the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball. This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt. Striking a ball handler or a shooter on that player's hand that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul, no matter how loud it sounds or how much it hurts.

Reaching in is not a foul. There must be contact to have a foul. The mere act of reaching in, by itself, is nothing. If contact does occur, it’s either a holding foul or an illegal use of hands foul. When a player, in order to stop the clock, does not make a legitimate play for the ball, holds, pushes or grabs away from the ball, or uses undue roughness, the foul is an intentional foul.

The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules (Part II)
 

Over the back is not a foul. The term is nowhere to be found in any rulebook. There must be contact to have a foul. A taller player may often be able to get a rebound over a shorter player, even if the shorter player has good rebounding position. If the shorter player is displaced, then a pushing foul must be called. A rebounding player, with an inside position, while boxing out, is not allowed to push back or displace an opponent, which is a pushing foul.

A defensive player does not have to remain stationary to take a charge. A defender may turn away or duck to absorb contact, provided he or she has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the playing court and facing the opponent. The defender can always move backwards or sideways to maintain a legal guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the playing court when contact occurs. That player may legally rise vertically. If the defender is moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender, which is a blocking foul.

The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and does not constitute a foul. Contact, which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive moves, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe. Contact which does not hinder an opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

A ten-second count continues when the defense deflects or bats the ball in the backcourt. When a dribbler is advancing the ball into the frontcourt, the ball maintains backcourt status until both feet and the ball touch entirely in the frontcourt.

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations. In both cases team control, a player holding or dribbling the ball, has not yet been established.

During a throwin, or jump ball, any player; or a defensive player, in making a steal; may legally jump from his or her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or the backcourt. These three situations are not backcourt violations.

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

The intent of the three-second rule is to not allow an offensive player to gain an advantage. There is no three-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts. There is no three-second count during a throwin. There is no three-second count while the ball is in the backcourt. There is a three-second count during an interrupted dribble. Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

The head coach may request and be granted a timeout if his or her player is holding or dribbling the ball, or during a dead ball period. A player saving the ball in the air can ask for and be granted a timeout even if that player is going out of bounds. The key is whether or not the player has control of the ball.

On free throws, there is a maximum of two offensive players and four defensive players in the six marked lane spaces. The defense must be in the first marked lane spaces, above the neutral zone marks, on all free throws. The offense must not occupy the first marked lane spaces, above the neutral zone marks. The shooter and all the players in the designated lane spaces must wait until the ball hits rim or backboard before entering the lane. Players, other than the shooter, and the players in the designated lane spaces, are to remain behind the free throw line extended and behind the three point arc, and may not penetrate the free throw line extended and the three point arc until the ball hits rim or backboard. During a free throw, no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower. For free throws when there are no rebounders in the marked lane spaces, i.e. technical fouls, the nine nonshooters shall remain behind the free throw line extended and behind the three point arc.

A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Action of arms and elbows resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or moving to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive. It is a violation for a player to excessively swing his or her arms or elbows, even without contacting an opponent.

Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes and who recovers it. It is also illegal to hit the ball with a fist.

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, with the very rare exception of a team only having five players eligible to play, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn’t have to play a tick of the clock.

Players may not participate while wearing jewelry. Religious medals or medical alert medals are not considered jewelry. A religious medal must be taped and worn under the uniform. A medical alert medal must be taped and may be visible. Headbands and wristbands must be white, black, beige, or a single solid color similar to the torso of the jersey. When wearing headbands and/or wristbands, all players must wear the same color and wear the items as intended. Only a single item may be worn on the head and/or on each wrist. Sweatbands must be worn below the elbow and be a maximum of four inches. A single headband, if worn, must be no wider than two inches. Rubber or cloth elastic bands may be used to control hair. Undershirts must be similar in color to the jersey and shall not have frayed or ragged edges. State associations may, on an individual basis, allow a player to participate while wearing a head covering, if it is worn for medical or religious reasons, provided that the covering is not abrasive, hard, or dangerous, and is attached in such a way that it is highly unlikely to come off during play. Written documentation should be available.

Officials are not required to explain judgment calls, but they may explain some calls if approached by the head coach in a respectful manner. Officials have been instructed to call technical fouls for profanity, unsporting acts and excessive complaints or verbal abuse.

Officials are on the court to be the only unbiased arbiters of the game. Officials are not concerned with who wins or loses, but only fairness and safety. Everyone else in that gym cares about winning, and therefore cannot look at the game objectively. Players commit fouls and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action, and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty.

Revised 11/15/09

It's Not My List, I Am Only The Keeper Of The List ...
 

I started working on this list back in March 2005, for a presentation that I was making to a college level basketball coaching class after I was asked to give a lecture on the most misunderstood basketball rules.

This is a list of basketball rules that are often misunderstood by coaches, players, and parents. I developed this list over the past twenty-eight years, officiating thousands of basketball games, listening to erroneous comments from players, coaches, and mostly from fans, and thinking to myself, "I wish I could stop the game and explain the real rule to them". This list is not meant to train officials, but rather, it is meant to educate players, coaches, and fans.

For example. A player is dribbling the ball in the backcourt and a fan is yelling "three seconds". Or, a player is inbounding the ball and a parent yells "he's stepping on the boundary line". How many times have things like this happened to you? Don't you just want to blow the whistle, stop the game, and say "there can't be a three second violation until the ball is in the frontcourt", or "the player can step on the line, but not over the line".

It is my hope that many of you will find this list useful in some way. Perhaps some of you may use the list, or a portion of the list, with your own local board. At the minimum, I'm sure that this list will spark some lively, professional discussion.

In order to improve this list, I encourage your comments, suggestions, corrections, deletions, additions, etc.

Thanks to the following Official Forum Basketball members, and NFHS basketball forum members, for their contributions in developing this list: bossref, Hartsy, Jurassic Referee, Camron Rust, Mark Padgett, Nevadaref, Mark Dexter, Dan ref, mdray, Jimgolf, elecref, Assignmentmaker, IREFU2, David M, JeffW, Back In The Saddle, rainmaker, texaspaul, BktBallRef, bob jenkins, Djjhabeb, Coach Kilo, zm1283, and sseltser.

I like to call this knowledgeable, dedicated group of officials the Mythbusters. They all have an official Mythbuster badge, and an official Mythbuster secret decoder ring. I'd like to tell you how the secret decoder ring works, but then I'd have to kill you.

Billy, my problem is that "palming" or "carry" does not require an advantage to be a violation; any more than OOB, traveling, or double dribble require an advantage. It's not like the definition of a foul, which requires some sort of advantage.

Please Find The Word Foul In This Passage ...
 

THE INTENT AND PURPOSE OF THE RULES
The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a
balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the
defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to
provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting
behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly
limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.
Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule. It is the policy of the NFHS

The 2009-10 NFHS Points of Emphasis use the word advantage four times in nonfoul situations:

The traveling rule has not changed; however, the committee is
still concerned that the rule is not being properly enforced. Consequently,
offensive players are gaining a tremendous advantage.

Well-officiated closely-guarded situations provide for
better balance between offense and defense. When the closely-guarded rules are
not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense.

Another situation that is occurring more frequently, and which
is often not properly called, is when an offensive player sets a screen in
the lane and remains there for more than three seconds. The responsible
official must make sure that offensive players are not occupying restricted
positions for more than the permitted time. The offensive player gains an
unwarranted advantage if he or she can “camp out” in the lane, either as
a potential shooter or as a screener.

Players are attempting to gain a rebounding advantage
by violating the free-throw restrictions and entering the lane early. No
player shall enter, leave or touch the court outside the marked lane space
(3 feet by 3 feet). Officials must review and enforce the rules regarding
offensive and defensive free-throw violations.

Billy, my understanding of that particular passage is that it's used to prevent players from using loopholes to gain an advantage.

While the application of this particular rule sometimes hinges on an advantage, its definition does not include such wording. To me, a "myths" list should stick to the way the rule is written, and if you want to add a sentence on application, then advantage could be a part of that. Even then, I'd qualify by saying "in some areas, officials look for an advantage before calling it." Do you wait for an advantage before calling a travel? OOB? Illegal dribble? Backcourt violation?

Twenty Questions ???
 

Sometimes, depending on the level.
No, never.
Almost never, depending on the level.
No, never.

Three seconds, yes.
Ten second free throw violation, yes, always.
Carrying, or palming, yes, most of the time, depending on the level.

Carrying and palming, I look for either an advantage or a really obvious carry.
Travel, never.
Illegal dribble, never.
Three seconds, usually; unless they start growing roots.
Ten seconds, not advantage so much as a really long time.
Five seconds, never.
OOB, never.
BC, never.

For none of these, however, does A/D play into the rule or definition; even if the official chooses not to call it.

Did You Ever Notice ...
 

Notice a theme running through these? Violations involving a boundary line, or a visible counting motion (exception for free throw), seem to be pretty much exempt from the advantage/disadvantage principle. We see them. We call them. No judgment needed. Not very subjective.

Personally, I don't go A/D for travel or illegal dribble, either. Not at the high school level anyway.
10 seconds, 3 seconds, and palming are pretty much it; and palming to a much lower extend than the other two.